What does Rhino V7 provide better than V5?

Steve1 · September 15, 2023, 4:15pm

Hi,
What does V7 offer me better than V5 ?

I have to decide if its worth the hassle. apart from having bought it, I have yet to use it, thanks to the basics, be it light issues (3 lights !) or lines offset from axes,or dims. and other things I have had to alter in settings to get it to give the defaults of V5, things that were useful,… and many weeks spent preparing V7 for use and months building a win10 for rhino V7 has seen me with a 5 fractured spine from no exercise. Its cost me my life.

So what are the basic advantages of V7 over V5 ?

Is it faster with meshes as I must have it better than V5 for such, .

Is it far better with multiple copies of an object without having to revert to instances.

has it better realistic shaded mode (no)…in fact worse.
shaded 5 might resolve that (a user created fix)

V8 opens dims as V5, so changes to solve dims vanishing in V7 may cause further issues on V8 ?

So what are the basic advantages of V7 over V5 ?

Steve

Helvetosaur · September 15, 2023, 4:35pm

About 6 years of further development. Plus another three for V8.

But the things that have been developed may not be the stuff you use, or the improvements that were made might not be things you care about. Or, they might even represent problems for your workflow if you are unable to adapt to a new way of doing things. In which case the answer to your question above might well be… “None”.

Except…

With every new version, you are going to fall further and further behind. The wall to climb to get current will be ever higher. At a certain point it will be just insurmountable.

Nathan_Bossett · September 15, 2023, 5:16pm

For the final question, we know nothing about your workflow so it’s hard to give an answer other than to look at the release notes to see what the improvements have been.

For the difficulties… what took you weeks and months to try to do?

And as Helvetosaur said… the upgrade path is only going to get more steep. What’s your long range plan? Are you going to be using Rhino for more than another, say, 5 years, or do you plan to shift jobs or retire relatively soon? Do you need to accept files from other users? Do you supply files to other users? In not too many years, you might need to be running a VM or special machine with an obsolete version of Windows just to keep V5 going efficiently (drivers for not yet designed video cards, MS’s evolution in built in graphics handling, etc.).

stevebaer · September 15, 2023, 5:23pm

Here’s our “promo” pages for Rhino features in 6 and 7

https://www.rhino3d.com/6/new/

double.m.designed · September 15, 2023, 7:26pm

I would say the biggest leap forward would be the addition of Sub-d modeling.

skysurfer · September 15, 2023, 7:41pm

My '80s Volvo is working so well…
Yes maybe it eat a bit of oil,
… and , ya, it has that annoying noise on the door.
Ah, yes, in the cold, but just something, it’s hard to turn it on.
But at the end my old Volvo is working so we’ll and I’m so used to it why I should by a Tesla… it doesn’t even have the access keys.

Just to say.
V7 compared to v5 is space ship. The gumball work so much well and the direct editing is so much better and fast.
The fillet are 300% better (not saying perfect )
And much more.

As Mitch said be free to keep your old Volvo maybe is just right for you.

Steve1 · September 15, 2023, 8:53pm

Hi,
Looking at the changes, I am still none the wiser on basic fundamental usage :-

1: Is it faster with meshes as I must have it better than V5 for such, I am heavily into photogrammetry and it creates meshes, I bring in meshes into Rhino but then Rhino5 would be VERY SLOW, add a second mesh in as I must and even worse, crash sometimes. Now I am with n Nvidia3070 and 64Gb DDR4 ram and latest processor and all SSD drives I hope for fast working. Is V7 designed to be FAR BETTER with meshes ? I did a holomark, was it any good ? I also need to get past the problem of selecting a mesh and one cannot see the objects one is needing to see to move with it and where they are whilst moving it, they being the items to locate to a new position, if only one could see them !

Is it far better with multiple copies of an object without having to revert to instances. I hate instances, cant change their colours, cant select them etc. far rather use copies of objects.
mention is made of better display whilst working, a more realistic lit environment with shadows and a darker interior end wall to a hole partially cut into a solid and some shadow is whats expected, but shaded mode doesnt give that out of the box, I had to turn on shadows , even then the end wall inside was same grey as outer wall and ortho view showed no difference, as if no hole was there. I expect surface lught variations to be as if sun is behind me and off top left or right, or studio brollies 45 deg to subject.

v7 hole no shadow1470×940 131 KB

Ran V7 and it had 3 light sources, most unnatural, and no settings at all in the colour table. No effort visible in fact.

Metal folding would be VERY USEFUL.
can it do weld lines now as creating such by hand is one heck of a faff.
If it had cmyk fills one could create artwork for printing.
export as eps would enable input into Photoshop where other graphical effects can be added. I used to draw maps and Macromedia Freehand exported as eps, then Pshop added the 3D effects.
I have to move grids about to generate such in Layout view prints for folk printing plans off for working to paper. A grid for printout checking would be useful.
Non fussy for non tolerance critical objects, working on one where 5mm didnt matter I spent days solving microscopic holes, naked holes, zoom and couldnt even see them any bigger. Does V7 solve that ?

At the very least better line viewing.

Steve

Helvetosaur · September 15, 2023, 9:35pm

Well, the first thing I would say here is that the answers to most of these questions are only something you can find out by trying yourself, as other people probably don’t use Rhino the same way you do and thus won’t really be able to answer objectively.

The second thing I would say is that “better” is a very imprecise term - better in what way? For most of the questions it looks like you want faster display speeds, but better could also be taken to mean “works like I think it should” or “works the way I am used to having it work”.

As to the specific questions:

Faster with meshes - if it is display speed you are talking about, most certainly yes. Dense mesh highlighting has not really been solved yet.
Multiple object copies - again display speeds I assume - whether they or block instances or multiple copies is not likely to affect display speeds dramatically basically because the same stuff has to be drawn on the screen (with a couple of exceptions). Block instances just save file size and make instance updates easier in some cases. Display speeds may actually be slowed down by nested block instances. But in general the display speeds are faster in later versions of Rhino.
“Display while working…” I don’t detect a question here except “out of the box it doesn’t look like the way I’m used to seeing it”. Yes, the way display is handled is much different in later versions. Lots more options for beautiful working modes - you just have to look at @Rhino_Bulgaria 's display mode post to see…
Nope. No metal folding.
Nope. No automatic weld lines.
Nope, no CMYK.
Nope, no eps export. Old stuff, even Adobe considers eps as a “Legacy format”
Don’t know exactly what you’re describing here, but doesn’t sound like anything native.
Tolerance is based on user settings as it always has been, nothing has changed.
“At the very least better line viewing.” There’s the “better” again. V7’s display system is completely different from V5’s. However, V8’s is again different, so I wouldn’t guarantee that if you finally make peace with V7’s display that you won’t be disappointed by V8.

Rhino_Bulgaria · September 15, 2023, 10:23pm

I believe that there are at least 4 good improvements in Rhino 7 that will make your upgrade from Rhino 5 worthwhile:

The viewport in Rhino 7 is about 3 to 6 times faster than the one in Rhino 5.
Shadow effects are on a whole new level, as we discussed in another topic recently. This particular enhancement enables custom real-time shadows based on ambient occlusion, so the close by objects actually look 3d and easy to distinguish from each other in Rhino 7, unlike Rhino 5 where they appear flat.
It’s possible to adjust the line thickness in Rhino 7 through a hidden command called testWireThicknessScale. This is extremely important if you work with screenshot drawings or simply want to customize the line thickness inside the viewport precisely.

I set it at a value of 1,5 while working on a 4K resolution, but you can choose any different number depending of your liking. The good part is that you can set even very specific decimal values such like 1,73 or 4,08 (not that somebody is going to use such weird values, but the possibility is there).

I made the following setting to load the custom line thickness upon every start of Rhino:
“testWireThicknessScale Enabled=On Scale=1.5 Enter”

Rhino 7 has a much better support for Scaling resolution in Windows 10 and 11. For example, I use 200% scaling, because I want my Windows 10 icons and programs to look as big as if they are rendered on a FullHD screen, despite that I use a 4K resolution for better clarity.

P.S. Keep in mind that Rhino 7 ships with a newer 3d mouse plug-in which no longer supports older 3d mice such like 3d connexion SpacePilot etc. However, I can still use the latter thanks to a “hack”: I simply replace the original plug-in with the one that came in Rhino 6.3. The downside is that I’m forced to repeat that after every update of Rhino 7. Other than that inconvenience, the 3d mouse works flawlessly. It would be nice if the Rhino developers include the plug-in from Rhino 6.3 along the newer one and add an option to choose the older one as an alternative to use legacy devices with discontinued support from “3d connexion” (it’s a very sad planned obsolescence that they do on purpose, in order to force people buy their latest 3d mice).

My SpacePilot works best with the 3DxWare 10.3.0 driver. It’s possible that other discontinued devices may work better with some different driver version.

Nathan_Bossett · September 15, 2023, 10:41pm

One followup point that isn’t, strictly, an answer to your question:

8 is getting ready to come out (beta, so feature freeze). If you’re going to go to all of the trouble to ‘catch up’ and are quite particular about getting the environment set up in a way that matches your existing setup (not a criticism, stuff like lighting and rendering just how you like it are important), you may want to catch up once, to 8, rather than upgrading to 7 and, in six months, making a post asking
“So what’s better in 8 that would make me want to upgrade from 7?”

If that sounds good to you, then you could pay for 7 but start experimenting with 8 then pay the upgrade to 8, or just wait for 8 and buy it.

Rhino_Bulgaria · September 16, 2023, 9:20am

I have a different perspective regarding Rhino 7 versus Rhino 8 WIP. The latter is still in its infancy (lots of bugs and incomplete features) and its GUI (graphics user interface, i.e. toolbars and icons system) feels considerably different than Rhino 7. Rhino 7, on the other hand, feels very close to what long-term Rhino users are familiar with, hence the transition from Rhino 5 to Rhino 7 is very intuitive.

Rhino 8 WIP has a totally different GUI which I partially dislike. It will not let me customize the toolbars and icons in the free and convenient way Rhino 7 let me do. Rhino 8 WIP also does strange bugs while trying to import my settings from Rhino 7. This alone is a huge drawback for me. Every time something like that happens, I read advises like "Just revert to the default UI, which literally destroys my customization and forces me to repeat it again manually.

Rhino 8 WIP freezes and sometimes even crashes for no obvious reason, even with a simple box in the scene.

The design of the tabs in Rhino 7 is better (futuristic look with inclined tabs) and with easier to read black text. Rhino 8 WIP’s tabs are rounded (despite every other toolbar being rectangular) and the text of the inactive tabs is grey (very difficult to read).
There is a noticeable lag between clicking in the viewport and clicking on some of the tabs above (maybe 300 milliseconds or so?).

Upon every start, Rhino 8 WIP also evokes the optional (hidden by me) Capture widget of Gadwin PrintScreen, a free program for screenshots. Having to close it every time is tedious, especially when opening Rhino 8 WIP multiple times per day. Rhino 7 does not cause that bug.

Every Rhino user has a unique set of requirements about the program, and judging from my own requirements I would say that Rhino 8 WIP’s biggest positive changes are just 4:

The ! _FilletSrf command is slightly improved, though it still lacks plenty of functionality that could make it a much more tool in the future. I posted some suggestions in another topic recently. The current limitations make it far less usable.

The Properties panel could auto-hide (optionally). A welcome change that I proposed for years and I’m happy that the developers finally decided to implement it. The left sidebar also could auto-hide.
The ! _FilletSrfToRail command lets you add a fillet whose shape is controlled by a curve on surface. It’s History-enabled, which is cool. ! _FilletSrfCrv is similar to it, but also far less usable.
“ShrinkWrap” looks like a promising tool for those who often work with 3d printers.

Steve1 · September 16, 2023, 1:54pm

Hi,
The ability to get far better light realistic shaded mode working environment is of interest to me and a longtime wish.
I thus persevere with V7.
but fail…

I do want my curves without twisted ribbon effect, thats so ancient windows 3.1 era, when we didnt have anti aliasing on things in basic drawing packages. V5 gave lovely curves, then V7 reverts to win 3.1

I am not sure why V7 was made non A/A following requests from users to ditch A/A, I wish it had been made an option for them to turn it off. but is there an option to turn on A/A for curves etc. Then also the 1px curves (lines) (same as 1px in V5) would appear central on axes of red and green., as well as decent non twisty curves and lines again.

Display quality for curves and lines, I dont like seeing V7 non Anti aliased twisted ribbon effects on a straight line or curves going thick and thin, as they will without anti aliasing. I wish to turn AA on, and see lines better displayed as experienced in V4 and V5. Personal preference but non AA went out in win95 days.

If I can add in meshes and not have rhino go very slow or crash, that will do me, and anyone in fact ! its not personal preference, its what one expects. (as also curves above)

The grid is something I have to create as an object and place behind whatever I am creating a detail view in layout for, .My own personal need, just fives client a grid to check his printout against for 1:1 scale views.

If I can work with copies of objects such as rivets and not have rhino slow right down, then V7 is definite for me.

metal folding none…damn, basically folk working with metal sheet would not find Rhino useful , other progs bend metal. I started out asking is Rhino for me as I have to create aircraft.

welds…a plug in that turns a curve into a weld, or joint at adjoining faces, anyone care to try for this ?
eps…how does one get rhino into photoshop ?

Tolerance, in V5 I was told.01 was least fussy tolerance, no way of entering 5mm

cmyk colour options would be useful, I was a Freehand user then Adobe killed it off, FH users never did like Illustrator. If I now have to do any artwork I love the far better tools of Rhino, but adding cmyk means Pshop and yet how do I get rhino into Pshop ?

V8 doesnt sound good if the GUI is all changed, its taken me ages to set up V7, another 3 days lost here trying to use V7 from the start on a job that shouldve been finished Friday (yesterday), yet to decide if to do it in V7, but just even trying to get a better shaded realistic mode is a struggle.

Steve

skysurfer · September 16, 2023, 2:11pm

Tell me you’re not using Freehand anymore?!!? Pls is a discontinued softwre since 2004 (20 YEARS!).
Are you asking for EPS (such bad and old format) not because a specific missing feature but just because yuo want to use Freehand???

In Rhino v7 you have a very good compatibiity with SVGs file (the best for vector artwork) or directly with Illustrator legacy file format so you can pass vector drawing directly in photoshop.
And more you can print vector file in the actual international document standard, the PDF!

Rhino V7 has Gradient hatch so probably you wouldn’t need Freehand anymore.

I hope not to sound rude (I’m not mother tongue) but I start feeling that the problem isn’t Rhino.

Steve1 · September 16, 2023, 2:18pm

Hi Skysurfer,
I no longer use Freehand, havent used it for years, I sometimes need to use a graphics vector prog and so reach for Rhino, then to find no cmyk colour options, so cannot create a cmyk file.

I need to get the art into Pshop, so ask here what is best method to get data on laters into pshop.

yes I can create a pdf of each layer, it would have to be a vector not raster pdf. scaleable !

I cant get Rhino5 and 7 to work with pdf24, the sheep icon pdf, worked fine in V5, on win7, but now win10 and landscape mode shows a portraut mode white sheet and half my artwork off screen.

I am not using Rhino for graphics as such, but would like to be able to as it has everything except cmyk.

Steve

Rhino_Bulgaria · September 16, 2023, 2:21pm

I just wrote a detailed tutorial regarding the setup of custom display modes in the other topic where you mentioned that your viewport looks flat. I believe that this will resolve the issue. After you try these custom display models, you will find it very difficult to go back to the default “Shaded” mode. The difference is like a night and day.

skysurfer · September 16, 2023, 2:26pm

I’m not using any Adobe sw anymore but I’m sure that exporting your file as AI file format gives you not only the Layers as in Rhino but a couple of other properties suchas line weight, editable text with fonts, filling/hatch pattern. V5 was close but in V6/V7 a couple of small issues were solved.

Using SVG is another super convenient way to share info to Psp.
I’m using Affinity product (THEBEST!!!) and SVG works like a charm both as exported geometry or printed.

CMYK is a long story… I agree that Rhino shouldn’t handle it becasue it has to be managed from the RIP when you prints. But this is my opinion becasue I only print in 3D.

Steve1 · September 16, 2023, 2:31pm

Hi, I shall have to try with ai again.

as for SVG I need to explore that option.

Affinity I have, but somehow could not get to grips with it when first trying it, I was used to a blade tool for cutting lines, and the trim tool in rhino is so lovely, and Affinity didnt have a cut method like Freehand or Rhino, so I struggled and didnt go back to it.

If V7 has more advanced text tools, thats good.

Can one use Rhino and not Illustrator in a suvvesseful graphics sort of way, unless wanting all sorts of clever fades and transparency, Rhino is not a graphics prog but simpler stuff is doable.

If I create a set of aircraft stencilling for a full size aircraft then scale it down for modelling, I have to get it to the decal printer company, so what file format they require, some ask for eps. SVg or DXF perhaps would be the way, or AI.

Steve

Steve1 · September 16, 2023, 5:30pm

Hi,
The fix to the bad lines of V7 involves the following alteration, though then the grid colours need darkening. Still does not solve the lines uncentred on axes, but all those jagged CAD lines are back to V5 quality, no twisted ribbons etc. a Steve Baer solution.

so V7 can offer as good as V5 , the axes need darkening a bit as well. properties>appearance>colour
Maj grid lines 185 needs to be 130 etc to match.
minors 210 to be 172

Why is it that gamma solves the problem ?

But then it causes issues in ghosted and x ray, as the grids are now darker, so in fact IT IS NOT A FIX, .

V7 at left, V5 at right.

Anti Aliasing should but doesnt. so centreing on axes remains unsolved.

Steve

Rhino_Bulgaria · September 16, 2023, 6:12pm

This is strange, because I can’t replicate these issues in my Rhino 7. My anti-aliasing is working perfectly fine.

skysurfer · September 17, 2023, 11:39am

Just saying very basic stuff:
is the Nvidia driver update?
Is Rhino using the Nvidia card or the embedded one?
Is Rhino graphics acceleration on?