R8 - how do i control linetypescale for printing?

[Benjamin_Schnei (Benjamin Schneider)]

hey,

how do i control linetypescale for printing?

what could the reason be to implement and uncontrolable “feature” which, I dont know, ignores the currrent line type scale per object or model layout and then scale it down to, whatever, so that the results are completly different and unusable for printing.

there is small option for dimensions but not for line types? i dont believe that.
from an users point of view this is a super bad design decision.

at the current state rhino is not usable for technical drawings AT ALL.

Benjamin

[John_Brock]

Since you’ve been around Rhino for 10 years or so, I’d start with having a look at what’s new with linetypes in V8 from the Features page:

Linetypes

If you’re still scratching your head, please reply back with a specific example of a problem and we’ll get you sorted out.

[mse]

I believe he might be referring to the concept of “model space pattern scale” in the top of the linetype menu.

At least what I would expect is a clear linetype in the model space as in the image below (see 0_Grid linetype i made)

If I create a detail in layouts with the scale 1:10, I would like the linetype to be as clear as the model space. In the image below the linetype pattern therefor is 10x bigger in my layout.

I understand that I can use the “model space pattern scale” to adjust that. But what if I have another detail scale 1:500?

Wouldn’t it make more sense to introduce a linetype pattern scaler option for each detail? Somewhere in the yellow mark after selecting the detail?

Thanks!

[Benjamin_Schnei (Benjamin Schneider)]

Brock,

thank for the nice collection of new features, highly appreciated and I am not saying that the mcneel team is not doing a great work, you all DO great work, thank oyu very much! rhino is my primary working software nearly 20 years and I love it.
I am super happy with every new feature and was really looking forward to the line type scale per object, which we now have.

There a re a some bugs, i call them bugs, i dont know if you think they are features, and they are around since years too. Like the tab not working in text edit, which drives me crazy on a regualar basis, was never really adressed, we had a discussion about that 2 years ago, then the lack of control of the line type scale while printing, and a lot more. i could attach now a screeny from my linetype settings and back and forth, which differs a little bit from the images in the link you posted.

You are right , i am scratching my head atm, because I really struggle to understand why the overall communication is not more easy for us all. i think i know from which point of view you are answering, it cant be the view of a designer and I think thats exactly the problem here.

so, I just want the linetype scale look the same on my print than in model space, but there is no way I know, that I can control that, except using a scale of 1.0 for all lines, than the line look ok on the print, but not in the model space. in rhino 7 there was this global scale at least for model space, we now have scale per object, which is way better.

how can I make my line type look the same in the printing preview / layout area like in the model space? thats the question, your post is not answering this. this works for dimensions since years.

you know, i need that, because i print a lot of layouts and sections and i check before printing in the layout space and preview, if there are the right colours and everything and line types obviously.

that is not working despite all the shiny new features, like the tab in the text properties. or at least i dont know how to do that.

thank you,
Benjamin
weirdlinetypescaling.3dm (78.0 KB)

[Benjamin_Schnei (Benjamin Schneider)]

i draw all the time 1:1 in model space and then scale the detail, without scaling text and dimensions.

[mary (Mary Ann Fugier)]

Hi Benjamin,
Thank you for helping us understand how you work.

There was an option in the Print Display in Rhino 7 called LayoutLinetypes
This was covered in a Rhino 7 Wiki page here.

In Rhino 7 you need to be on a Layout.
When you type the command Print display the options on the command line would offer:

For Layout unit scaling:
Command: PrintDisplay
Print Display (Layout Viewports) ( State=Off Color=Print LayoutLinetypes=On )
or for Model unit scaling
Print Display (Layout Viewports) ( State=Off Color=Print LayoutLinetypes=Off )

Can you verify that this is what you are looking for in Rhino 8?

Thanks,
Sincerely,
Mary Ann Fugier

[Benjamin_Schnei (Benjamin Schneider)]

hey Mary,

thanks for the answer. firstly i dont know a case in which it would be necessary to overide linetypes, but obviously you thought the same and deceided to get rid of that in r8, so thats ok.

secondly my answer to your question is no, because of what i previously said. As it looks to me the option should always be on, as it seems to be in r8, where this setting is missing.
so the issue i have is not showing a linetype or not, but its scaling.

so everyone who worked on this specific feature, which is very helpful and thank you btw, understands the need to control the scaling of linetypes, like hidden etc. so i draw everything 1:1 in meters and to understand a drawing in different scales (200, 100, 50) i use different linetype scales.

in r7 we had a global setting which was called “linetype scale” as shown in image 1, that is missing in r8 completly. this global setting was not enough to take control over your line types to look good all in all in a technical drawing, so you deceided to make that per object in r8, very good. thumps up
what happend now is that, if you are working in meters, the line typescaling is too small per default (1.0), so you have to use a value of 100 to make it work.

so i dont want to change a line type itself by editing the “model space pattern scale” in r8 shown in picture 2, which is also very handy of course, but not the problem. (i could change that but then i would have two different scales in model space and layout too).

my suggestions are:

1. if there would be an option for deactivating the scaling for line types in model space and layout, like for dimensions (image 3), I would be very happy. a WYSIWYG “what you see is what you get” basically. ^^
2. bring the global scaling back, like in r7

thanks for your patience,
Benjamin

[mary (Mary Ann Fugier)]

This does not affect Linetype scale in Rhino 7 either.
This only affect Annotations scale like text and dimensions.
But I do understand that you also use model scale for annotations.

@Benjamin_Schnei

1. bring the global scaling back, like in r7

@WATER85

RHINO 7 is ok

Rhino 7 did this with a setting in the Print display.
Command : PrintDisplay
Print Display (Layout Viewports) ( State=Off Color=Print LayoutLinetypes=On )
or for Model unit scaling
Print Display (Layout Viewports) ( State=Off Color=Print LayoutLinetypes=Off )

This is MIA in Rhino 8.
I have logged RH-79524/Add-LayoutLinetypesOn-Off-back-to-PrintDisplay

You will be notified in this thread when there is a fix.

Thanks for letting us know this was important to your workflow.
Sincerely,
Mary Ann Fugier

[stevebaer]

@Benjamin_Schnei it looks like you are using an 8.3 release candidate. We accidentally removed the control for this during the 8.3 release candidate period and are adding it back. I’m referring to the item highlighted in this screenshot.

This control will be back in next week’s 8.3 build. You can also use the SetLinetypeScale command in Rhino to set this value.

If you need access to this control before Tuesday, let me know and I’ll get you a link to an internal build.

[WATER85]

Which version has Model space scale?

[Benjamin_Schnei (Benjamin Schneider)]

hey Mary,

yes, you are right, I was not aware of that due to the global settings in r7. and the fact that the setting was per default on. it seems not to work properly here with a test file, but it worked once. why hide the scaling switch behind an option with shares no info on which it does and has to be toggled all the time i open the file? (like state = off then again)

Yes, I understand that enable model space / layout space scaling is not effecting line types, therefore I suggested an addiotnal button with the same function but for line types in my previous post.

as steve added the global setting function will come back too, so everything seems fine in this case.
we recorded the some other essential issues for tecnical drawings two year before, that tab is not working in the text properties, which is specially painful and absoilutly not understandable for me, and nothing happened since then.

thank you,
Benjamin

[Benjamin_Schnei (Benjamin Schneider)]

hey Steve,

could you then please add this line type switch like for annotations and dimensions too?
or make the options in printdisplay sticky, so we dont we dont have to activate them again and again.

thank you,
Benjamin

ps: tab stop is not working in text properties. ^^

[stevebaer]

@Benjamin_Schnei

could you then please add this line type switch like for annotations and dimensions too?

I don’t understand what you are asking for. Could you please elaborate?

[Benjamin_Schnei (Benjamin Schneider)]

[stevebaer]

Is your goal to have linetypes in detail viewports drawn in world lengths instead of in output paper lengths?

[Benjamin_Schnei (Benjamin Schneider)]

steve,

everything i can add to this is written above. but in summary, i would like to print as i draw it in the model space (1:1), without scaling. probably thats not the most sophisticated way of working, but i dont need any scaling, i scale in different planning phases in the model space.

i have different dimensions and text blocks for different scales (m100, M200, …) so nothing has to be scaled by rhino. I want to deactivate every scaling for annotations, dimnesions and linetypes, because I would like that everything on paper looks like I have drawn in model space 1:1. I draw in meters. of course I scale the drawing than - properties detail view and scale value to get the scale i want. most of the time in concept design phase its 1:200, so verything in my drawing is prepared for that scale.

and to answer your question I never used

Benjamin

1. this image shows elements in model space.

2. this image shows the elements in the layout area with enable layout space scaling and enable model space scaling activated.

3. this is how it looks with layout space scaling and enable model space scaling deactivated.

as you can see i cant control the scaling of the linetype. Mary said that this is possible in R7 with an option in the commmand “printdisplay”. She suggested to add this option back to R8.I answered her, that therefore this is not sticky, I have to do that everytime i open up the file.
then i supposed to add the buttons also for the line types as for the annotations and the dimensions.

[stevebaer]

Sorry, but I’m trying to better understand the exact problem you are having. The posts above are difficult for me to parse. I’m trying to understand what result you are trying to produce from a print.

[Benjamin_Schnei (Benjamin Schneider)]

i edited my previous posting, was not expecting you to answer that fast.

[stevebaer]

Thank you; those details helped me better understand what you are after. The printdisplay command is not the solution here. That command is intended to try and get you closer to a live print preview mode, but it is not intended to actually change what happens when you print.

I think we are going to eventually need some sort of option on each linetype to specify how pattern length and line width is interpreted when printing (in the units of the physical output or in model units). This way the information is saved with the 3dm file and prints are consistent without relying on some checkbox to be set in the print dialog.

For the time being there might be a way to achieve the output you are looking for by running the ExtractLinetypeSegments command, printing and then undoing the extracted segments command.