Why is Rhino so bad at dealing with materials?

[ShynnSup]

I am talking about UX, UI and performance.

Performance:
1.It takes ages to load the materials. I don’t know what happens under the hood but of all the 3d programs I use Rhino is the only one struggling to load the materials. It gets specially unworkable with long lists of materials.

2.Scrolling the list is practically impossible.

3.Deleting materials also takes AGES and I just experienced multiple crashes after waiting 20 minutes for Rhino to DELETE ALL materials in the file.

4.Even with only 20 materials, no textures at all. Resizing thumbnails via scroll bar lags.

5.Creating a material and adding textures to it also lags.

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UX:

• NO DELETE ALL MATERIALS BUTTON. (have to select first material, manage to scroll down a list of 400 materials, select last, and right click for delete. Then file crashes.
• NO OPTION TO HAVE NO THUMBNAIL, JUST MATERIAL NAME.
• NO WAY TO QUICKLY ADD DEFAULT MATERIAL. I should be able to click multiple times here:
  And get 10 materials in 3 seconds. But I can’t I need to scroll and choose Plaster type. Each. Time
  

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UI:
1.The material Notes tab is the most useless space consuming feature I have ever seen in a software. Hands down.

2.Why are material properties forever linked into the material library box?
These should be two separate menus.

3A.Why do all material properties keep stacking in top of each other? They should be tabs.

Like this example.

3B. Same with texture properties.

4.Why are custom settings awkwardly chunked into double columns when this does not happen anywhere else on the material properties? (transparency for images is so hard to reach)

5.The most common user expectation to add a new texture is to click here and be able to input an image from my pc. But I click here and I actually get a whole bunch of menus inside Rhino for textures.

Larger ‘click to add texture’ button should default to opening explorer. Besides you can have the check board texture to create textures inside Rhino. Folder icon could just go away.

6.This button should be erased from the phase of the earth. And it is actually confusing. One thinks he is going to change the texture, not open the texture to edit it! Why are you opening paint!?

7.After +7 years of using Rhino I still can’t figure out how to exit texture properties and go back to material properties. There is not back arrow ANYWHERE.

WE NEED NAVIGATION ARROWS ALWAYS PRESENT TO GET BACK TO PREVIOUS MENU OR LEVEL.

I am telling you guys, the materials in Rhino need a complete overhaul ASAP. And from someone who actually knows what they are doing. I am an architect, I don’t work in software, but even I can see these things as a normal user using multiple software. It is pretty basic stuff.

[anon (am)]

Agreed on almost every point. Related:

Slow performance in material editor

I don’t care about UI. I have set it up to be close to V7 and I use custom shortcuts mostly. V8 is terribly slow compared to V7 and, knowing I have to be learning it, I don’t have the patience and I can’t afford wasting my time. With each V8 session it takes 30 min or so before I go back to V7. Anything related rendering is absolutely no-go zone (materials, environment, mapping etc) and it’s pity because I like the new push-pull and some new additions. I keep explaining myself that reason is…

[ShynnSup]

There’s been no response from McNeel so I am just going to start posting wishes separately and link back to this thread.

WISH #1: Delete All Materials Button.

WISH: Delete All Materials Button

I can’t believe I am saying this but, similar to what Ketchup has… (oh how low have we gone). [image] Please make it not crash the file. Thanks. Linking back to this thread:

WISH #2: Display materials as list of names (only text no thumbnail).

WISH: Display Materials as List Names (no thumbnail)

I noticed Rhino has a really hard time loading material thumbnails. If this is not fixable in 2024 with artificial intelligence and robots making robots and the doom of humanity, can we at least have an option to not display the thumbnail at all? I think that is codable? We have chatGPT now! Thank you. Linking back to this thread:

WISH #3: Add New Material the same as New Layer.

WISH: Add New Material the same way Add New Layer works

You know how we can click here multiple times and have new 10 layers in 3 seconds? Albeit not in 3 seconds because of some inexplicable lag that still is going on with Layer’s menu UI. [image] But it would be nice/ideal/coherent to be able to do the same with materials. They even have the same icon language. [image]

[maxsoder (Max Söderström)]

About the performance. In v8.9 there was a fix concerning deleting materials. The problem was that deleting many materials was slow. So it should be faster in v8.9.

Also in v8.9 one can turn off the thumbnails by setting EnableGLPreview and EnablePreview to false in Advanced settings and restarting Rhino.

[ivan.galik]

very well summarized

[andy (Andrew le Bihan)]

Thank you for all the work you put into that post. We are logging bugs against them and we will start work immediately on improving things.

Rhino 8 was a complete re-write of the rendering UI - at least on Windows. The idea was to use the same code base for both platforms, and there are bound to be some early problems. Hopefully we will be able to get back to where we need to be with your help pointing us in the right direction!

[maxsoder (Max Söderström)]

I logged all the feedback for the UI in the following issues

RH-82516 Notes section takes too much UI space

RH-82517 Wish: Use tabs instead of collapsible sections for content editor

RH-82520 Add new texture button should open the file explorer

RH-82518 Custom material UI is divided into two columns.

RH-82521 The texture edit button should be more clear.

RH-82522 Request to add navigation control back to content editor

RH-82523 Add a new “Delete all” task to the content editor.

[maxsoder (Max Söderström)]

@WISH: Add New Material the same way Add New Layer works

You know how we can click here multiple times and have new 10 layers in 3 seconds? Albeit not in 3 seconds because of some inexplicable lag that still is going on with Layer’s menu UI.

Would it be possible to get a sample model that is slow? It really should not be slow at all to just add layers.

[bjornsmolarek]

Hello,
a button to delete all materials is not necessary, because there are two ways to do this.

1. To delete all, simply click on the three horizontal lines at the top right, then select all and then click delete
2. To delete only unused ones, simply use the Purge command

[anon (am)]

Layer panel slow in Rhino 8

On Rhino 8 the layer panel is responding slow for files with extensive layer structures. It will take some seconds before a layer is created and often I end up creating a couple of layers by accident. Also selecting or renaming a layer has a significant delay. The same file in Rhino 6 has no problems.

Systeminfo

Rhino 8 SR5 2024-2-20 (Rhino 8, 8.5.24051.15001, Git hash:master @ 8ad7c99e58df0a8c09e572ba1ae2b52a6f429060) License type: Commercial, build 2024-02-20 License details: Cloud Zoo Win…

Here’s one of many discussions about it. Layer lag, and other problems with selecting and sorting layers unrelated to lag, is a killer and makes 8 unusable for me and others.

System Info

Rhino 8 SR8 2024-6-11 (Rhino 8, 8.8.24163.12481, Git hash:master @ ded4d86ca901dbeaf13ee84f79b3e91b22da4880)
License type: Commercial, build 2024-06-11
License details: Cloud Zoo

Windows 10 (10.0.17134 SR0.0) or greater (Physical RAM: 16GB)
.NET 7.0.0

Computer platform: LAPTOP - Plugged in [100% battery remaining]

Non-hybrid graphics configuration.
Primary display and OpenGL: NVIDIA Quadro P2000 with Max-Q Design (NVidia) Memory: 4GB, Driver date: 4-11-2024 (M-D-Y). OpenGL Ver: 4.6.0 NVIDIA 552.22
> Integrated accelerated graphics device with 4 adapter port(s)
- Windows Main Display is laptop’s integrated screen or built-in port
Primary OpenGL: NVIDIA Quadro P2000 with Max-Q Design (NVidia) Memory: 4GB, Driver date: 4-11-2024 (M-D-Y). OpenGL Ver: 4.6.0 NVIDIA 552.22
> Integrated accelerated graphics device with 4 adapter port(s)
- Windows Main Display is laptop’s integrated screen or built-in port

Secondary graphics devices.
Intel(R) UHD Graphics P630 (Intel) Memory: 1GB, Driver date: 2-18-2021 (M-D-Y).
> Integrated graphics device with 3 adapter port(s)
- There are no monitors attached to this device. Laptop lid is probably closed

OpenGL Settings
Safe mode: Off
Use accelerated hardware modes: On
Redraw scene when viewports are exposed: On
Graphics level being used: OpenGL 4.6 (primary GPU’s maximum)

Anti-alias mode: 4x
Mip Map Filtering: Linear
Anisotropic Filtering Mode: High

Vendor Name: NVIDIA Corporation
Render version: 4.6
Shading Language: 4.60 NVIDIA
Driver Date: 4-11-2024
Driver Version: 31.0.15.5222
Maximum Texture size: 32768 x 32768
Z-Buffer depth: 24 bits
Maximum Viewport size: 32768 x 32768
Total Video Memory: 4 GB

Rhino plugins that do not ship with Rhino

Rhino plugins that ship with Rhino
C:\Program Files\Rhino 8\Plug-ins\Commands.rhp “Commands” 8.8.24163.12481
C:\Program Files\Rhino 8\Plug-ins\WebBrowser.rhp “WebBrowser”
C:\Program Files\Rhino 8\Plug-ins\rdk.rhp “Renderer Development Kit”
C:\Program Files\Rhino 8\Plug-ins\RhinoRenderCycles.rhp “Rhino Render” 8.8.24163.12481
C:\Program Files\Rhino 8\Plug-ins\rdk_etoui.rhp “RDK_EtoUI” 8.8.24163.12481
C:\Program Files\Rhino 8\Plug-ins\NamedSnapshots.rhp “Snapshots”
C:\Program Files\Rhino 8\Plug-ins\MeshCommands.rhp “MeshCommands” 8.8.24163.12481
C:\Program Files\Rhino 8\Plug-ins\RhinoCycles.rhp “RhinoCycles” 8.8.24163.12481
C:\Program Files\Rhino 8\Plug-ins\Toolbars\Toolbars.rhp “Toolbars” 8.8.24163.12481
C:\Program Files\Rhino 8\Plug-ins\3dxrhino.rhp “3Dconnexion 3D Mouse”
C:\Program Files\Rhino 8\Plug-ins\Displacement.rhp “Displacement”
C:\Program Files\Rhino 8\Plug-ins\SectionTools.rhp “SectionTools”

[ShynnSup]

@maxsoder

Would it be possible to get a sample model that is slow? It really should not be slow at all to just add layers.

Hi Max, regarding layers? Can we maybe split this topic?

It happens with just a new file. There are many posts in the forum regarding layer interface being slow.

Specifically if you create sublayers of about 3 levels deep, and then start adding layers in that sublayer level, you can notice a big lag, as I can click 10 times, and stop clicking, and Rhino will continue adding layers after I have stopped clicking.

I have added a post in this thread:

Layer panel slow in Rhino 8

@maxsoder I have recorded some videos showing what I experience. Rhino interface (you can see how I can move my mouse around and Rhino is still adding layers, its a slow Rhino ) Interface working as expected. (notice how much faster and smooth it looks, it also feels that way)

[wim (Wim Dekeyser)]

@ShynnSup

It happens with just a new file. There are many posts in the forum regarding layer interface being slow.

It’s a known issue and is on a developer’s list: RH-80693 Layer panel slow in Rhino 8
-wim

[metaar]

I completely agree with everything written here. I have been using Rhino for 20+ years professionally, and I like modeling and grasshopper a lot. But I feel dread when I need to do something with materials (which is very often). The material system is also getting slower with every release. The UX is completely unsuitable for work that involves rendering, and honestly if you compare Rhino’s material and texture mapping workflows with other 3D software, it is easily one of the worst out there.

[Matt_Smith]

Thank you sooo such for taking the time writing this great Wishlist. I’ve been on the Beta test team since 1998. And version 8 is plagued with the worst programming I ever saw. It all started when the programming efforts were diverted to grasshopper and developing a SketchUp-like interface. A total departure from true-roots of RhinoCAD … If Brian and the team quit working of making Rhino a tool for everything, and stuck to what it was supposed to be for: Industrial design, they would have been light-years ahead. Instead, it seams to be a bucket of bolts everyone is trying to put back together. It seams McNeel needs to get out of retirement and fix his boat.

They could have incorporated all the features of real-time photo realistic GPU rendering like Keyshot, expanded on the animation feature set, have a robust mapping and materials suite and really took over this part of the marketspace. However, they weren’t forward thinking enough to stay true to their core.

v8.8 is crashing with imported mesh pictures and pre-tessellated mesh materials, and the texture buffers limit out prematurely it appears. A lot of it was started in 7.0 and never address until 7.33 . Primarily because the programmers do not use the software on a daily basis, and have disconnected from Industrial design fundamentals. Such as new generations often do, they follow something they dream as new and shiny… I have no idea why.

[ShynnSup]

I am big fan of of industrial design but as an architect I use Rhino daily and love it. I think both industrial design and architecture share many similarities when it comes to software requirements, hence why the initial wish-list for material improvement would probably benefit both fields.

@Matt_Smith

It all started when the programming efforts were diverted to grasshopper

I would say it was worth it to be honest. I rather have GH and Rhino in its current state than slightly improved Rhino but no GH at all. Besides, I think Grasshopper was mostly a one-man project… If we’re looking for reasons behind the scattered resources, the development for Mac might be a more likely culprit.

@Matt_Smith

Primarily because the programmers do not use the software on a daily basis

I have noticed the same thing and reached the same conclusion. Some of the basic failures point to this being the only plausible explanation.

[maxsoder (Max Söderström)]

@ShynnSup

UI:
1.The material Notes tab is the most useless space consuming feature I have ever seen in a software. Hands down.

This is the reason why the Notes section is the last section in the UI. So that other more importan properties are shown first. It is also possible to collapse the section so that only the title of the section is shown. Rhino will remember the state of the section so that when Rhino is started again the Notes section will be collapsed from the start and will not waste space.

[Gijs (Gijs de Zwart)]

@Matt_Smith you’re posting various unrelated issues here. If you have files that crash, pls make a new thread, and provide the necessary information, thanks.

[maxsoder (Max Söderström)]

@ShynnSup

7.After +7 years of using Rhino I still can’t figure out how to exit texture properties and go back to material properties. There is not back arrow ANYWHERE.

Yes, we will add the navigation buttons back. They are really handy.

Before we get the buttons back there are a few ways to get back to the material from the texture. One can click the material name in the breadcrumb control (the control at the top). This will select the material. Another way is to the click the thumbnail (in the below image I have previews turned off at the moment) and that will select the material.

[Matt_Smith]

@Gijs_de_Zwart
It looks to me you seem to be knowledgeable Gijs. So I ask, why do I need a crash report in order to strive to make Rhino an better tools for us all. Did I hurt your feelings? I like working with proactive and knowledgeable people. I don’t recognize you. How long have you been with McNeel & Associates? I used to work with the team in Seattle. It looks likes there in now a European element involved. Please confirm.

… Would yo like MY wish list as well? …

[Helvetosaur]

@Matt_Smith

I don’t recognize you. How long have you been with McNeel & Associates? I used to work with the team in Seattle.

Gijs has been around probably for longer than you - unless you started with Rhino 1.0.

@Matt_Smith

It looks likes there in now a European element involved. Please confirm.

In case you hadn’t noticed, McNeel is international. The McNeel people are all over the world, not just in Seattle.