Vector Output - a wish

A post was split to a new topic: Section Tools: Placement of Clipping Drawing

Hi Nuno -

If, by that, you mean the following:

That’s something that was recently fixed.

Yes, after changes to the model, you need to update the drawings.

I’m not sure what’s going on in that picture. Can you post the file?

Please post a link to that discussion so that we don’t have to take that from scratch.

That’s not something that I can reproduce here, and I’d need a file and your changes to the display modes that are used. Options > View > Display Modes > Rendered > Clipping Planes is set to Use section styles by default.

That looks like a bug. I’ll file that.
RH-80054 Section Tools: Drawing is moved to layout
-wim

https://discourse.mcneel.com/t/layout-scaling-r7/165729/10

Mary-Ann Fugier answered there:
"Because the Rhino 8 section drawing represents the full size model it belongs in the model space. "

Actually I could not fully follow her argument why this has to be so. A section drawing is a 2d extract, and should not fly around somewhere in model space. It should be a selectable entity (a dynamic block), that has a scale parameter and can be placed directly on layouts.

Take Archicad, or Revit, which have a similar layouting paradigm. There’s 1) the 3d model, then 2) a 2d extract from it (a floorplan or a.section), where also the annotation is happening. Then there’s 3) the layouts, where these 2d views can be placed, in any scale needed.
This system has proven to just work.

What Rhino is missing is 2), a dynamic 2d extract that can be placed directly on layouts, without needing the 3d scene as a ‘host’.

Additionally:
The best solution would be to introduce a new and separate pure 2d sheet, that serves as this missing link.
Whatever the old CAD standard says, it falls short here without this.
This would be a huge addition, I’m aware. Please think about it nonetheless.

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Hi Eugen -

Apparently, it was you who did the frowning in that thread :see_no_evil:
And if you go back, you’ll see that I “liked” your post at the time.

My background is from MCAD products - SolidWorks, Pro/E, Creo, and NX. In those products, you never have to mess with 2D versions of 3D objects in the 3D environment. In Rhino, viewing the objects through details on a layout and annotating on the layout comes closest to that workflow, and, in my mind, is still the only workflow that makes sense. It does require good enough vector output from that layout, though. I’m hoping that section styles will be made to work again during the Rhino 8 life cycle, which is something that is required for this workflow to be viable. I’m also hoping that we will be able to set linetype styles for visible edges and silhouettes in Rhino 9.

Until then, and since ClippingDrawings to layouts is not in the cards - especially not for Rhino 8 - …

I would simply create all clipping drawings on top of each other in model space. Then, when its layers have been created, turn off the star in the New Detail On column, and turn off the lightbulb in the Model On column.
image

Then create a detail on a layout and turn the Detail On lightbulb for a single clipping drawing on.
-wim

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Ok, guilty as charged! As you noticed, I’m quite enthusiastic about progress in the layouting arena, and want to keep the debate alive. Sorry if I’m being a p.i.t.a., but I don’t want to quit believing.

I can confirm that bug - which I wished were a feature:
image
Happened after UpdateClippingDrawing.

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@wim
Sorry, I was stuck on meeting the whole week.
Picking up on some loose points and a problem.

I am on the fence regarding having the dynamic sections views on the Layout only. It would be great to have it on the layout and that you could click the clipping board and would take you there great.

However, it would be also useful to see it place by toggling some setting. Meaning, if I want to them in the model, I could turn their visibility on and off, like you turn the Clipping plane on and off. It would be excellent if you right-click the clipping plane and had a menu (ViewDynamicSection=Off ToggleClippingPlane=On GoToLayout) etc.

I agree with you with that you can do the first part, by controlling the detail view with the layers. I used to do it exactly like that on the in R7 with Make2D. The problem however, is that you need to do that manually and is cumbersome:

  • For Detail01 Create Detail01>>GoTo Detail01>>TurnOff ModelLayers
  • For Detail02 Create Detail02>>GoTo Detail02>>TurnOff ModelLayers and Detail01Layer
    and GoTo Detail01>>TurnOff Detail02Layer
  • For Detail03 Create Detail03>>GoTo Detail03>>TurnOff ModelLayers and Detail01Layer and Detail02Layer
    and GoTo Detail01>>TurnOff Detail03Layer
    and GoTo Detail02>>TurnOff Detail03Layer
  • For Detail04 Create Detail04>>GoTo Detail04>>TurnOff ModelLayers and Detail01Layer and Detail02Layer and Detail03Layer
    and GoTo Detail01>>TurnOff Detail04Layer
    and GoTo Detail02>>TurnOff Detail04Layer
    and GoTo Detail03>>TurnOff Detail04Layer

It gets longer the more details you have. And pretty soon the Model space gets unworkable because you cannot turn of layers only on Model space and they have to be on to be visible on the details.

For the second part, I did not find a way of placing a section on their CPlane, i.e. a Front Section should be in the Front CPlane, either on the 0,0,0, on its actual position or an offsetted position (another bunch of options for different ways of working). This is useful because in creating the views you can see sequential and overlapping sections.

I’ll post the problem in a separate thread and link it here later, and I’ll make a separate post or thread for the issue with the spheres.
N

That isn’t the case in R8 anymore. Any space (model, layout,.detail) now has a common global layer visibility, plus a second one, local to that space.
Check it out: two columns of lightbulbs in model space.
(There are still some inconsistencies, but that’s another story)

Thanks Eugen,
I had missed that. Also there is a “New Detail on/off” columns, which probably makes the layer off on the any new details.
A minor suggestion turn it off by deffault on the Clipping planes dynamic layers because typically it should be turn off in all but one (or a few…).

Thanks, N

Hi @wim ,
I was trying to reply your comment above and planning to start another thread on that subject, while adding a few more issues.
In doing so, I found some puzzling things.

I have a group of clipping planes that is giving me a few issues on a project. Since I cannot post that model publicly, I decided to delete the geometry in question just keeping the clipping planes and add the sphere model above…

  1. It took me a while to understand that the new geometry needs to be added to the clipping planes set. This is a bit odd because when you are modelling any new geometry needs to be added to the existing clipping planes, which is a bit annoying.
    Is there a toggling setting for this?

To be honest the point above does not affect the bulk of our workflow because in documenting a project we’ll normally have the model(s) referenced as block(s) in a layout specific file. The way Rhino handled blocks historically, however, has not made this a easy route to take (still testing this in R8).

  1. After adding the new geometry to the clipping planes, I tried to update the existing drawings with UpdateClippingDrawings. I can’t really figure out what happened, but all but one drawing remained unchanged, i.e. the drawings show the geometry of my original project although the geometry is not in this model any longer (all the layers and blocks are purged).
    Strangely, the one section/drawing that was updated, has some remnants of a few elements from the previous geometry and it was the one clipping plane that was giving me trouble on the other model (see 3. below).
    I already closed down Rhino and updated to the latest version (they are coming fast).

  2. Since I cannot put my original model here, I’ll describe the problem that is hard to replicate. I have a model referenced inside my R8 File, where I created a series of plans and sections (ClippingPlanes and ClippingSections). All worked fine except one section, that looks as if instead of being a Right CPlane section (perpendicular to World Top) seems slightly rotated around the Y axis, which makes the section wrong. I made all the sections and plans in one go and, although unlikely, I thought I made a mistake in setting that section. Therefore, I’ve redone it a couple of times but always with the same result.

  3. Going back to ‘what’s going on with that picture’ above, there are several things.


    (1) The hatches on the two larger spheres are present in the drawings (left) but not on the clipping viewport (right).
    (2) the ‘elevation’ (background) lines of some of the smaller spheres disappear on the drawing (2a & 2b), they should be visible as in the Technical View of the model (2a’ & 2b’).
    (3) the ‘elevation’ (background) lines visible of one of the smaller spheres, ignore the intersection and is a perfect circle in the drawing (3a) and correctly displayed in the technical drawing view (3a’). Other intersections also do not show (3b/3b’)

Curiously, the three points above are very noticeable comparing the two images below. The elements on the left are the drawing, the elements on the right are the model in Technical View.
In the first image the ClippingPlane is not active on the Top view, in the second the ClippingPlane is active in the view. In theory on the second image the two should be the same.
image
image

@wim @Eugen
a quick question is there a way of including drawing in the dynamic section? Meaning, we sometimes have 2D backgrounds that should appear on the plans or elevations but that are not caught by the dynamic drawings.
N

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Hi Wim,
an update on some of the problems above.
I don’t know why but all the sections and plans that I have done last week became dead, meaning I can’t update them and I cannot edit them. That is why when I tried to use them for the sphere file, the were not updating.
I have redone the problematic section described above and this time is correct. It is also the only drawing that updates, a.k.a. is not dead.
I had to delete the previous sections layers by hand, because when I deleted the clipping planes the sections were still there.

Then I redid all the sections carefully placing them in known points related to the 0,0,0 coordinate.

What I have described and you suggested above is simply very difficult to do. The insertion point of each drawing is not the 0,0,0 is the centroid of the resulting drawing.
WHY !!! if the scene changes, grows or shrinks, it will be simply impossible to match new plans or sections to the previous ones. It also make matching rendered views and dynamic section simple guess work (another reminder for placing sections in different CPlanes).

I ended up redoing the whole drawing set by initially selecting only a sphere with the center at 0,0,0.
Along the way the names of the sections stopped updating - a couple updated to the new name the others stayed with the original name.
Then I added the rest of the geometry to the clipping planes. Adding the geometry to the planes made me suspect that the computer was going to explode… but it worked and the names got updated.
Another annoying thing the Section lines are proportional to the selected geometry so my section lines were miniscule. and I had to scale them all one by one, in order to see them.

The sphere trick worked fairly well but…

It is completely maddening!!!
… and honestly this is unworkable in medium to large scale projects and extremely annoying in small scale projects.

Please fix this or tell me how can I approach this in a better way.
N

Hi @wim
This last issue of “the sections becoming dead” has happened again yesterday after a crash while updating drawings. updating drawings now does not crash if but also does not update…

This probably means that I’ll need to setup all the sections all over again which is a royal pain, specially to go through the sphere strategy…

Also it seems that the file actually saved while crashing and before updating all drawings, because one of the drawings is updated, i.e. as the updated geometry, but is wrong as it seems that part of the background lines are doubled, with the double being slightly shifted to a side.

Any idea what is going on and if this issue of placing the drawings in a knowable position has a road map to be solved?
Thanks, N

P.S. @wim I can confirm that the geometry is real “dead”. using the EditingClippingDrawing and trying to change the PlacementPoint hields no results… back to the sphere strategy…

@wim @rajaa
Here’s a couple more unworkable issues with sections

  1. the resulting drawings is leveled to a couple few layers. This was not as Make2D worked, it kept the layers. Is there a setting for this?
  2. As reported many time ago in R7, [edit: and now also in R8] the geometry present in layers that are off on referenced blocks (I did not test in block that are not referenced) is “seen” by the section, i.e. it sections objects that are on layers that are off.

The list is getting real big and there hasn’t been much acknowledgment of the problems apart from a couple of obvious bugs. Can we get some feedback on these issues?
N

A good point. In my case i put 2D Symbols on the 3D Model walls. I need them in the Sections as well.

@wim @rajaa
Simple question:

The fact that Rhino collapses the whole layer organization in to a handfull of layers renders the whole dynamic section useless. On the other hand, the make2D did not inherit all of the good things of the Dynamic Sections, like hatching, and complete/clean solid sections.

Thanks, N

@rajaa
Last week I have uploaded a model with the “dead sections”. I have redone the whole thing and after a couple of updates, the new ones again became dead.
This whole issue is incredibly unreliable. Do you have some feedback on these issues?

[edit] The problem with the “dead sections”, besides the obvious problem of their ‘demise’, is that they don’t go away by eliminating the clipping planes. So not only you need to delete the clipping planes, but also manually eliminate the drawing’s layers.
N

I’m working on it now. It is documented here…