Wish: model layer visibility to be independent from layout layer visibility

Serengeti (Rhino WIP)
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Hi,

Anytime I work on complex layouts, lots of layouts with lots of details, I feel the urgency for this feature to be improved. There has been many takes on this like the one by @SamPage Wish V6: Better Layout Management - #2 by SamPage which I really like it. Can we expect any of this coming to V6? I really think that Rhino needs some heavy improvement in this area.

The thing I find more confusing is how layers’ visibility are handled. In order to set a custom layout visibility within a detail, you have to :

  1. Show all model layers in order to be able to turn on/off layout layer visibility
  2. Double click a detail and configured Layout Layer Visibility as desired.
    2.1.Optional: I can saved a Layer State within the detail, so I can apply the same settings to another details.

The problem
When I go back to model space and keep working, I need to deactivate some layers so I can work effectively. But, when I go back to Layout, all those layers I turned off, will keep turned off in every detail, so you have to remember to turn all model layers on again before you are going to print.

I find this “feature” so dangerous. Imagine someone else open the file in order to check something, turn off a couple of layers and save the file. Then, I open the file go to Layout and sent to print…

Wish: Model layer visibility to be independent from layout layer visibility. By implementing this, there shouldn’t be the necessity to show all layers on layout before printing.

Recently I’ve been teaching Rhino to a few architects, and every time I explain the current way of setting a layout properly, they look at me with big eyes asking: are you kidding??.. So, I’m not the only one ; )
This post Layer Control in Layouts & Thumbnail Update also complaint about this “feature”

Thanks,
José

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Hi Jose - thanks
https://mcneel.myjetbrains.com/youtrack/issue/RH-38476

For now, one possibly useful tool is LayerStateManager - in your example, keeping a Print layer state might ease the pain some.

-Pascal

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Thanks Pascal for taking a look.

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@jespizua and @pascal I think I just thought of a workaround and I wonder what you think of it/if you see any pitfalls that I’ve missed:

  1. Include a special character in the layer name such as a carat (^), for any layer that should be turned off in 3d view
  2. Write a script called “3D layers” that turns off all layers containing “^”, and a “2D layers” script that turns them back on
  3. Edit the Ctrl+P shortcut so that it runs the “2D layers” script before printing.

I realize a similar function could be accomplished using Layer State Manager, but this solution avoids the need to update layer states every time layers are added, and allows 2D/3D layer filtering to be accomplished using built-in Layer Pallete Layer Filter feature.

Thoughts? Insults?

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Hi -

I don’t know your workflow, so that might work for you.
The more general case is that some layers are on in some details on some layouts but off in others.
When you then print multiple pages to a PDF file, a script like that is not going to provide the correct layer state for each and every detail on all these pages.
-wim

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@wim, I’m not suggesting that the detail or layout on/off is regularly changed via the scripts, only the main on/off. Main on/off is changes so that 3D views can be uncluttered with layers that should generally remain off when viewing in 3D, while layout details remain populated with relevant layers. Does that make more sense?

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Hi Steven -

Not for “my” workflow, but if it makes sense for yours, by all means…
To me, all 2D stuff should be on layouts. That never gets in the way in (3D) model space.
-wim

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[EDIT: haven’t tested these extensively, but it seems like the scripts shared on this page could make everything work just fine, for Windows users at least. Thanks to the authors]

I’ll give you an example from my workflow that might illuminate where I’m coming from. Here’s some objects that I want to show up in 2D but not in 3d:

  • Items that will be demo’ed or relocated. These objects should show up in some 2d plans (existing conditions, demo plan), but I rarely want to see them in 3d, so it would be ideal if they default to off in 3d
  • Elevation or Perspective Annotations in the model space. I realize that some may prefer to annotate in layout space, but I’ve found it to be more difficult, especially when there’s nothing good to snap to and Scale Factor must be set manually. It also creates fewer problems when dimensions are added earlier in the design process and you want them to follow drawings that may be moved on layouts later in the design process to accomodate evolving documentation needs. As far as I know, it’s impossible to accurately dimension an object in a perspective view using Layout space dimensions. Potential workaround: creating a new Display Mode that hides the offending objects and leaving it on in the perspective view.
  • I’m curious to know if @jespizua has any other examples

Either way, it seems like one of the less painful papercuts, so probably a low priority, but clearly a lot of people have been feeling some version of it, judging by this and other forum topics.

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Hi -

I disagree. Layout and object management in layouts is a major issue that I would love to get more attention at some point in the future.
-wim

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I ab-so-lutely concur!

What’s holding you back?

Regarding layer visibility - allow me to repeat a proposal I did in another thread already. I nag you again because I still think this is a good idea and there weren’t many reactions back then.
Now in Layout space, there are 2 rows of layer on/off toggles. One ‘global’, one ‘local’ (for this Layout or Detail only).
Why not do the same thing in Model space - have 2 rows of toggle lightbulbs? Same principle - one global=master, the other one for Model space only.
During work, when hiding/isolating layers etc. one would mostly use the second (Model space) toggle. Layout space would remain untouched.
Still, it can be quite desirable to turn off a layer everywhere, in Model and Layout space. That’s when the ‘global’ toggle is used - just like now.

Of course there are a few layer related commands that would need adaption then. If this is doable with reasonable effort I don’t know.

Thanks in advance for considering!

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Hi @wim , Is there any progress or updates on decoupling Model Layers from Detail/Layout layers for Rhino 8?

Sorry to bring back an old thread, but I’ve had a look on the forum and haven’t seen any updates on this topic in the roughly last year.

Either a full decoupling or a @Eugen suggests, by including a new secondary row of lightglobes in Modelspace that would effect model-space only. (But preferably a full decoupling where new layer creation doesn’t interrupt previously created layouts).

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