Questions about layers and layout views

I have to ask because I think I’m doing this wrong.

When I set up my model and then make pages to print I use layouts.
With the layer setting views, the layers can be hidden for each detail.
However if the layer is hidden in the all layer settings
then it can not be made visible in the detail view.

My first issue: this means that every time i change layer visibility in my working model I am affecting all the detail views?.. how do i save a complicated version of layer visibility for each detail from being affected as I continue working on the model? for now, i know that when I want to print pages I make every layer on the model visible. and then its a pain to remember the layers to turn back off to keep working . Is there any way to save these layer visibility configurations in a way that does not affect the views???

Also when I add a layer that is new and I want it visible in the working model but not in the detail I have to go through every detail and turn it off? This seems problematic as the amount of detail views increases… Or maybe I am misunderstanding the best practice workflow? Any advice is appreciated thanks -e

Hi ethank- I think the pain you are encountering in your process is the way it works in V5. For instance, I don’t think anyone contemplated the idea of adding a layer and not having it visible in any detail. V6 adds some functionality in this area but the workflow you describe, I am fairly sure, is not accommodated, yet. I’ll ask @mary to take a look at your comments as well- she’s probably more aware of some workflow or detail tools than I am.

The LayerStateManager may help a lot in keeping track of and restoring complicated layer visibility states.

-Pascal

the layer state manager is just what I was looking for thank you SO Much!!!

Hi Ethan,

Inside a detail you can turn on a layer that is off in model space, using ShowLayerInDetail command. However, this workflow has not seemed to work correctly (for how I would expect) when that same layer is turned on and off back in model space. See topic New layers OFF in detail viewports.

Matt

@ethank

Welcome to layout space. You may want to watch Mary Fugier’s webinar on the subject:

it’s highly helpful. Then don’t be afraid to post more questions.

@ethank,

I have to ask because I think I’m doing this wrong.
When I set up my model and then make pages to print I use layouts.
With the layer setting views, the layers can be hidden for each detail.
However if the layer is hidden in the all layer settings
then it can not be made visible in the detail view.
My first issue: this means that every time i change layer visibility in my working model I am affecting all the detail views?
-ethank, I’m not sure that you know about the columns in the Layer panel that control visibility in a specific detail? Works like this. The Layer panel normally has one “lightbulbs” column that controls visibility. Turning the lightbulb for a specific layer on or off in this column affects both modelspace and layoutspace. However, when you activate a detail in layout space, a second visibility column appears (called “Layout On”) and toggling the lightbulb in this column only affects the visibility in that specific detail. Maybe you knew this, but if you didn’t, it’s an important part of how layout space works.
… how do i save a complicated version of layer visibility for each detail from being affected as I continue working on the model?
-You use the LayerStateManager that Pascal mentioned. You may eventually want to create a macro and connect it to an alias that toggles one arrangement of layers for modelspace and another arrangement for layout space. That’s what I do. I have the layers for modelspace linked to the alias “V1” and the layers for layoutspace linked to the alias “V2”. When I go in to modelspace, I quickly type V1/ Enter and I get the layers arranged the way I want them. When I go back to layoutspace, I type V2/ Enter and get the layers changed to the way I want them for layout space. It’s not too painful.
for now, i know that when I want to print pages I make every layer on the model visible. and then its a pain to remember the layers to turn back off to keep working . Is there any way to save these layer visibility configurations in a way that does not affect the views???
-As above.
Also when I add a layer that is new and I want it visible in the working model but not in the detail I have to go through every detail and turn it off? This seems problematic as the amount of detail views increases… Or maybe I am misunderstanding the best practice workflow? Any advice is appreciated thanks –e

  • Pascal is right about the pain here. McNeel is working on it and hopefully will have a solution soon.

Hope this helps.

This is all very helpful. I did know about the second light bulb … but only recently.
I’ve watched this Mary series just yesterday as I have been having frustrations.
The worst part is now that I understand the workflow it still seems buggy and every time i keep working with the model, it at times forgets the configurations I tediously set. Its that or user error somewhere which is prolly more likely…

I just added the layout manager to the workflow. thanks for that advice! So I have all my layers on in the print mode and it looks good, when i go to work mode where only the parts I am updating are visible and then back to print mode and check my details, suddenly the dimensions carefully drawn are now missing? I am not sure if it is because they were dimension-ed in the detail view and not in the model space. I’m not clear on the difference between the two approaches and what each is used for… update : OK i think that this IS because those dim are modeled in the detail space and that when the layer temporarily disappears upon layer manager change the dimensions get lost.

or Maybe my file is gone corrupt… It seems that with regard to layout for I have a long way to go.
Also, is there a way to disable a sheet so as to now slow down the processing when its edit time. I feel like now that my model has 4 sheets it is much slower to update in the model space…

Maybe I’ll need to break it into two models, one for designing and one for documenting. that sounds like a pain to keep them in sync… Thanks so much for your help. So much of my work is in rhino and gH that I forget how important layouts are . I do want to understand them though because I spent all day wrangling my details trying to keep them in line…-e

1 Like

Hi Cosmas- turning off a layer in model space turns it off everywhere; having a layer set to visible in Model space allows the Layout controls to win - that is HideInDetail will take over if it is set.

-Pascal

by visible you mean using the hide object command?

Hi ethank - I mean the layer is visible- that is, the lightbulb in the layer control is yellow, not blue (yellow= on/visible, blue = off/hidden - these can be set per detail in the layer panel) Click to change…

-Pascal

ethank,

“So I have all my layers on in the print mode and it looks good, when i go to work mode where only the parts I am updating are visible and then back to print mode and check my details, suddenly the dimensions carefully drawn are now missing? I am not sure if it is because they were dimension-ed in the detail view and not in the model space. I’m not clear on the difference between the two approaches and what each is used for…”
-ethank, some people dimension in modelspace and some people dimension in layout space. I put all my notes and dimensions in layout space, that way they don’t clutter up the model. It’s a matter of personal preference.
"or Maybe my file is gone corrupt… "

  • I doubt this. But maybe…

“Also, is there a way to disable a sheet so as to now slow down the processing when its edit time. I feel like now that my model has 4 sheets it is much slower to update in the model space…”
-There are some options here. If you have a very heavy model and lots of details in layout space, it is true, that the program will slow down. Two things you can do:

  1. In the Display panel (if you don’t see it, go to the Panels menu and choose Display ) under Object Display, check the Bbox Display box. This will substitute bounding boxes for different parts of your model, when you’re moving the camera around in modelspace, or moving the drawing around in layout space. This helps a LOT.
  2. If it’s still too slow in layout space, switch the display mode in the details to wireframe. This should helps a LOT.
    "Maybe I’ll need to break it into two models, one for designing and one for documenting. that sounds like a pain to keep them in sync… "

-This would be an option, but you will hopefully not have to do this.

Hope this helps.

that’s very helpful thank you for your patience and clear explanations.

Hi Ethan,
You started a good discussion. Nice to see all the participation from other Rhino users.

To clarify:
Currently and ever since Layouts were added to Rhino 4, layers in the details are not completely independent from the model or global layers. If you turn off a layer globally, it will be off in all details. If you turn off the layer in the details, it can remain on in other details and globally.
However, Color, Plot Color and Plot Weight are completely independent from the global.

For example,if you turn the Detail color to yellow, the global can stay Blue. Or if you turn the global to green, it will not affect the details own color for this layer.

There are “layer states” to restore layer settings globally or in the detail. However, it is still true that all layers must be globally visible to be see in the details.You can copy a Details layer settings to a second detail by saving and then restoring a layer state in another detail - or by simply copying the detail. That works too!

This layer behavior should improve in in Rhino 6. We are working on the logic that will give details layers complete independence from the global. There are some decisions to be made a few difficult situations, if this is implemented…

Also when I add a layer that is new and I want it visible in the working model but not in the detail I have to go through every detail and turn it off? This seems problematic as the amount of detail views increases… Or maybe I am misunderstanding the best practice workflow? Any advice is appreciated thanks –e

Yes, in Rhino 6 there will be a command to create a new layer that is not on in all details. Sounds like that will be very helpful to a lot of you. You will able to test it in the beta period and see if it does what you want.

Sincerely,
Mary Fugier

Hi Mary,

You wrote:

…it is still true that all layers must be globally visible to be see in the details.
…We are working on the logic that will give details layers complete
independence from the global. There are some decisions to be made a few
difficult situations

Could I ask: Why doesn’t Rhino implement a separate column in the Layer box as a true GLOBAL on/off lightbulb toggle, and add a MODEL on/off toggle just like the Detail/Layout views have their own DETAIL on/off toggle?

So if all of us users who, in model space, want to make new layers that are not on in any details, we would create a new layer, turn OFF the “Global” lightbulb, turn ON the “Model” lightbulb, and then go specifically to the 1 or 2 details that we want and turn that ON that “Detail” lightbulb? That would work just fine.

Similarly, if we want to see a normal layer in all of our detail viewports, but currently it is bogging down our work in model space, we could leave the “Global” lightbulb ON for that layer, but turn off the “Model” lightbulb. This would work too, and solve the problem of losing Detail’s custom ON settings when you flip on and off a layer in model space.

Matt

P.S. To add/ resolve functionality, perhaps the way to go is to actually make the Model & Details’ lightbulbs into three-way switches. All layers would naturally be on a neutral switch (not ON or OFF) for Model and Detail custom settings. The Global setting is for both Model & Details IF the Model and Detail lightbulbs are on neutral (kind of like a pass-thru). However, in any particular Layer, if a user flips a Model or Detail’s lightbulb ON or OFF, that would override the Global setting.

Summary: Global is an ON/ OFF lightbulb, and Model and Detail layer settings are three-way switches (ON/ OFF/ Pass-thru-global).

2 Likes

Hi Mat,

This is an excellent idea! I will discuss it with the team @dale and we will see where it leads.
Thanks for expanding our perspective on these layer settings.
I really think it will work nicely.

Kind regards,
Mary Fugier

I am having such a frustrating time with layouts.
For me they do not seem to operate in a consistent fashion.

I have copied and pasted a layout three times on a sheet.
At times when I change one layer visibility it will change in just that detail view. other times it changes every detail view on the sheet

Also every time i edit my file the dimensions I add in the sheet view get messed up…? they are no longer accurate, this is so frustrating, one dimension consistently goes from 1 3/4" to 1/8" while another goes from 1/4" to 0"
I am spending half my time fixing layouts. This is terrible. How can I work on a model if every change demands I redraw my layout dimensions and redo all my layer visibility.

this is the problem . I add these dimensions in the sheet view left side of image. then when i double click on the detail and re click to get back o the sheet the dimensions have all changed! right side

Matt, this deserves more than a ‘like’. I think if this type of feature is adopted, the new layers should be off by default or a switch where we can choose on or off for new layers, edit, I think that’s what you’ve described in the p.s.

@mary
This situation really has been a pain in an evolving model where layers are added regularly and there are many layouts and details to be checked at the end of each session to see if you’ve missed hiding the new layers, which amounts to a lot if time being regularly and needlessly wasted.
When under pressure to get a job out, the new layers are sometimes not noticed until the fabricator can’t figure out what the extra geometry is. Then the questions and curses flow through the shop hierarchy until eventually the query gets back…. that’s another dent in the reputation, shop time lost and a re-print.

Please don’t take this the wrong way, I just want to reinforce how a simple thing can catch you unawares and become a major problem.

@mary

The image attached is how I think this could nicely work for pretty much any situation. Some of the situations a user may have might be able to be made by multiple combinations of on, off, and pass-thru, but that’s really up to what the user is intending to do (frequent swapping of on/off, etc). Brian’s comment about the layer headaches is right on.

@BrianM

My hunch is that the default position for a new layer should be with the Global ON and the Model and Details as Pass-thru. This would cause the least confusion for new users making new layers (can you imagine being a new user making a new layer and getting frustrated because you can’t see it?) You and I could easily get what we want with one click to turn the Global lightbulb OFF after creating a new layer.

Matt

Hi Matt,

For Rhino 6, we are planning to provide the underlying technology and user interface to allow users to specify layer states independently for each layout/detail viewport. This will be useful in details and layouts, and may provide underlying technology to simplify layer management for referenced blocks and worksessions.

I cannot provide any implementation details (yet) as we have not yet started to work on this feature. Hopefully when we implement this, you will be willing to test it and provide more useful feedback, such as what you have provided here.

Thanks,

– Dale