WIP (8) feedback

Serengeti (Rhino WIP)
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Hi everybody, McNeel developers.

I’m making this thread to not forget about my common problems while using Rhino.

Note that, I’m not using WIP, but here and then I check if whatwassupposedtobeon7 is fixed on wip.
Usually not. What was marked for “7.x” was later changed to “8.x” (like a stab in the back, but I love you guys anyway. Rhino fan here!)

So, I hope on 8.x you will fix some of the things that bugs me, and I’m already begging you to not push them to 9.x!
(Did I just gave up all my hopes to see 7 fixed? … :slightly_frowning_face: )

Let’s make a list?

  • SubD, which I’m using daily:
    – Curvature analysis? I’m using some 100-row code with GH to patch the absence of official support, but it’s still bothering to have to reference a SubD, open/close GH to see the coloured scale. We have no SubD curvature analysis on 7, but not even on WIP! Is it planned?
    – 2 years later > SubD bevels feedback - #8 by BrianJ
    – I have so much ideas for SubD (mainly to boost my workflow). I tried to do things by myself with c# but the underlying structure of the class is broken! Subd.Vertices only have a .First and .Next , no topology, too few methods, too little depth. Vertex and Edge tags get scrambled up at any edit!
    – Add a optional value somwehere for which the double-click on edges or faces will not chain-select indefinitely, but only x amount every time.

  • C# scripts on Grasshopper on WIP: the editor got problems. Maybe related to Eto?
    Repeatable: Rhino fullscreen on monitor 1, GH fullscreen on monitor 2. Create a c# script component, double click to edit the code. The editor pops and I was too fast to drag it from screen 2 to screen 1. Rhino UI totally dead . After a mix of random keystrokes I managed to minimize Rhino and maximise it again, unstuck.
    The c# editor now opens and “sort itself” in a couple of seconds (that must be a really unoptimized step), if you drag that window cross-screen before it finish > total UI death.
    (both screens have same windows scale %)
    Can I ask already for older c# editor on V8? Is it possible? :sweat_smile:

  • WIP UI is ugly. Bloated. Inflated. Lot of lost space due to large borders everywhere, double borders. Popup window by clicking the wheel is now useless.
    Small windows (like Zebra analysis or Curvature graph) are almost un-resizeable because the handle appears only at 1 pixel.

  • 3d connexion mouse on WIP stutters more. Sometime it even randomly completely stops to work for a second or two.

  • I’m not using blocks, mainly because I were so “burned” on Rhino 4 age that I’m forever scared to try them again. Please listen other users about blocks. I can’t comment about this.

Thanks for everything.
Sorry for the textwall…

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I am reposting this. It is kind of feedback as well. Long story short i am not impressed much.
My profession is architecture and civil engineering. I use Rhino as my main program despite the hurdles.

Blocks
-better editing in place sketchup like
-editing of non uniformly scaled blocks
-defining block axes not only insertion point, when redefining prompt to ask if instances position should adjust to new axes or recalculate to remain in same position (very important when you decide to change block definition deep in the design process resulting inn instances to change position)
-i think blocks should have both definition user key values as well as instances should have separate key values thus two level hierarchy
-acapulco plugin and blocktools have few very useful simple functions just implement it in rhino (some already are in wip8)
-improve macros so they can handle blocks better (quit block editation)

Elementary stuff, mostly drafting
-rich text editation like in autocad
-scalability of texts (at least have width factor)
-richer annotation settings like in autocad (dimension line invisible, if there is no space for dimension have leader to value, more units available (such as gradians for angles)
-support .shx special linetypes like in autocad
-detail view to be any shape not only rectangle like in autocad
-improve Fx in texts so that there is some kind of placeholder instead of long code to extract attributes
-have ability to clip/crop regions of linked files/blocks with any shape like in autocad
-new dimension type to be able to easily annotate in 3d space like in sketchup
-new dimension type to dimension curves like in autocad
-new dimension type for elevation ordinates like in allplan

Hardcorer stuff
-true reliable technical vector display mode which is actually usable
-expand clipping planes to include clipping objects of any shape, jagged strings of clipping planes, possibility to create unrolled views and advanced views such as jagged views

Miscellaneous
-save display modes in file
-audit commands to respect current cplane not only world cplane (cap, …)
-cap all holes like in gh (suboption of cap)
-improve reliability of some most important commands (fillets, booleans, …)
-grasshopper to support referencing subobjects
-general audit of consistency (like you can selby whatever but you cant selbylineweight or printcolor…)
-audit and refinement of some commands to support two sets of selection
-booleans to support any type of geometry
-intersect two sets should support any type of geometry (meshes are not supported)
-support project origin which is arbitrary point far from world origin and operations are calculated in respect to project origin to avoid far from origin problems. global coordinates would just be addition of project origin - world origin
-pushpull like in sketchup, support collapsible breps (when you make hole in a wall and move some face of the hole to the end of brep resulting in zerothickness region should automatically perform boolean difference and delete zero thickness *optionally or have a prompt what should happen)

when this is done i would then move to new territories such as dynamic blocks, flair, constraints, …
what i have mentioned is something very expected from universal versatile CAD package, nothing too specific for any industry. honestly i expected at least “Elementary stuff, mostly drafting” to be a priority for v8.

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I logged RH-72824 RhinoCode can lock up UI when dragging between screens in dual screen setup

Thanks for pointing this out. Logged as RH-72813 resizing Emap, Zebra, Curvature Analysis etc. is difficult

yes this is planned for v8 ( RH-50501 Curvature analysis support for SubD srfs is needed)

please be specific, then I can log these.

I think what you want is similar to what I know from Modo, where you can grow/shrink selections, is that right?

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Hi @ivan.galik in the future, please do not repost or post the same request in different treads, because that will only mess up things. If you want to call more attention, just quote it in the same thread instead. For now I will reply to this part by part. It will take some time to address all, so starting with Blocks:

please specify this one, I don’t have sketchup, nor know how it is working there.

How should this work in your opinion? Would you edit the block in its scaled version? Would it reset it’s scale temporarily. The latter is probably most feasible.

This is listed as RH-72007

Can I translate this as block instances having shared and local key/values pairs?

it would be easier if you just mention the features you would like to see implemented

This one is not clear to me.

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That would be absolutely loved by all SubD users. That’s even better.
What I asked was about the simple double-click over an edge which will chain-edge select all and every other edge. (Same about faces…)
Often auto-chain loops are longer than what you need.
The usual “trick” I use is to also select another edge where I want the selection to stop:
ezgif-2-3a012b745d

It would be cool to have a small number to change:
2023-02-06 13_11_20-Gravel P - M 058.3dm (553 MB) - Rhino 7 Commerciale
(without it being an hidden option to call with a command and replace the last called command, etc etc)

What I meant was about the need of a more “serious” and reliable/accessible methods on SubD.
For example, with meshes we have a great control through rhinocommon! (we just lacks half-edge methods, but we have topology and we can access edges/vertices as ienumerable…)
SubD feels like… “forgotten”?

Really the simplest way is to cast a subd to a mesh , work with the mesh, and then recast it as subd.

But, subd edge tags and “Id” suggests we could have a more granular controls over it.
Instead, those tags/id simply completely reset at any subd change.
I started to work to a SubD constraint system, for example, but I have no means to do so.

Great! Super!
Even thought I/we expected it to be on 7 at dayone… If it’s there on rhino 8, that alone would be enough to justify buying Rhino 8!
But if it is not there at 8 dayone, I’ll have a déjà-vu…

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PART 2:

can you specify this?

on the list as RH-66832 Support Non-uniform Scale of Text Annotations

It would be helpful to send me an image of what you want to log this

You requested this before and this was logged RH-29232 2d Linetypes wish

RH-2574 Non rectangular details

please clarify this one with an example.

RH-4022 Block wishes
I added this thread to it

is on the list as RH-50849 3D Dimension

RH-2250 Arc/Curve length dimension

RH-66327 New Dimension for Architectural Elevations

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This is the main reason I have not started to use WIP 8. I use a couple of floating toolbars in my workflow and that’s impossible in the WIP, they take a huge area in screen, It’s silly. I hope this can be brought to a basic level of usability so we can use the WIP and provide feedback on everything else.

Thanks,

G

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This is certainly on our radar. John Morse has been working a lot ‘under the hood’ lately to make changes possible, which was the first priority. Changes to the UI will follow in the coming months, but I cannot guarantee when this will be addressed.

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I just realized I made a huge strategic mistake: I admitted here that I’m not using or testing V8 until the UI is fixed and usable. So @JohnM is going to be like this for a while fixing it…
v8_wip_UI_fixes

G

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Yeah, everything said, but I will not be able to use Rhino 8 while this persist:
constant static rotation with 3dconnexion, random stutters/freeze/pauses
3dconnexion rotation stutter

I still have the feeling I am one of the few using a 3d mouse.
All the time its behavior/implementation is left behind.
I think everyone using Rhino should use one (huge time saved), devs included.

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I think the market has already voted on this. Same as Wacom tablets/pens. Niche cult devices, loved by a handful of devotees, mostly irrelevant to most people.

I tried 3D connection mice and Wacom pens/Cintiqs several times, but I don’t see the appeal of either, but that’s because I do a lot of typing and using shortcuts. And no please, don’t educate me on the shortcuts abilities of these weird tools, I also tried them with shortcuts and they are equally lame IMO.

G

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I think non-3dmouse users need lot of shortcuts because they need often hands on mouse + CTRL/ALT keys to navigate (both hands).
I actually use 0 shortcuts.
While I navigate with 3dmouse, simultaneously i can call commands from the toolbars or entering few characters to find it in the automatic search on the prompt bar, because my right hand is completely free! 0 time wasted.
Also, with 3dmouse you can turn camera when some other window would, normally, lock the viewport.

But, I agree this is OT.

Still, rhino have one of the best implementation of 6-axis 3d mouse. Please, don’t forget it, devs!

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@maje90 do you still have that high frequency gaming mouse hooked up? That was what caused stuttering in the past and we might be seeing this again in Rhino 8.

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Yes, set to 125Hz.
But I can replicate this on another pc with a totally generic 10€ mice.

Also, Rhino 7 is fine. Wip not. Same setup.

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Block-text formatting plz. Sometimes this is the only reason why i have to export to another software.

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please it is a free software, even browser based. just give it a try. i expect company which develops CAD to have general overview of direct competition packages and its functionality. model a cube, make it a component and play around how it feels to work with blocks. users should give a nudge not do all the research.

I think scaling temporarily sounds good to me but ideally both (you are editting non uniformly scaled block do you want it to temporarily scale or edit as it is) but i dont wanna think about implications what scale does to the object.

exactly. definition carries definition attributes and instances carry instance attributes. so basically an instance carries both

select same blocks, show block planes, … please you are a developer install them and see for yourself otherwise i should be getting dividends :smiley:

there was a discussion to include macro command so you can end block editation from macro script

autocad is omnipresent package, please do the research of your direct competitor and see that autocad offers much richer options to edit text (subscripts, superscripts, paragraph alignment, dotted lists, …)

i dont think adding individual features like that is a way to go, it should be one general upgrade of text functionalities, incrementally implementing small feautre by feature will result in situation when in 2055 we will get things autocad had in 1995 (i hate autocad…)

when using Fx within text it is written as a code to retrieve specific attribute and once you add more in the same text it is becoming very dense

image
image1063×745 55.5 KB

sketchup has this one figured out, it works nicely, in rhino it can be even better :slight_smile:

My point is that there are many basics which need overhaul and not incremental improvement, i dont want to reach my retirement before basic things are included :frowning:
Nothing proposed by me is any novelty, nothing to be invented, just implemented.

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I use an old 3DMouse and have not had any pauses/stutters while rotating or panning.

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Wonderful.

@stevebaer I plan to also buy a 144Hz monitor.
I can foresee how alone I will be with such “alien” setup.

But probably working on a CAD with ultra-smooth feedback would be awesome.
High rate, zero lag mice, 3dmouse, high rate monitor. Flawless.
I’m dreaming.

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I’m just trying to figure out what is different about your system that is causing the effect so we can see what can be done. I recall Rhino stuttering with the mouse in the past and we fixed the issue once we understood the problem.

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Here is a list of the main features I can remember to get you started

  • Double click to access a block, click outside to get out of it.
  • Double click to access a nested block, ad eternum
  • A toggle to hide/view the rest of the model (this could be improved by specifying which hierarchy level can be seen)
  • Define context opacity while editing a block
  • A toggle to hide/view similar blocks
  • Select blocks and make unique
  • Change axes and insertion point
  • Insertion point is actually an insertion plane and can be used to place blocks over any surface
  • Replace blocks
  • Save block as file (3dm in this case)
  • Link external file as block
  • Insert external file as block (drag and drop)
  • Scaled blocks remain scaled while editing.
  • Reset to block definition (when scaled you can use this command to revert the scale)
  • Redefine block (the selected scaled version is now used as block definition)
  • Scaled blocks are edited preserving the transformations. Much better than reverting to block definition in most cases IMO. It would be great to be able to toggle it.
  • Enable/disable X Y or Z scaling
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