V8: more issues

[encephalon]

i give you what i can bear writing up now but there is definitely far more and maybe somebody might actually want to check reports which are lingering without response.

---

1
the gears in the panels are still an (ugly) redundant double function since you can simply right click into the tab no need for it. if you are so in love with that gear then please give it a dedicated function with all the other settings which are now there and include the SHOW options into the right click instead like as it was in v7 mac. then the gear makes at least sense while making the show panels more direct and faster with right click.

2
in v7 you right clicked into the panels and a pop up to select other panels came immediately without delay then quickly checking or unchecking them and the window disappears after checking without me doing anything more. NICE!!!

BUT
in v8 the right click or click on the gear takes a half a second or at least close to it, at least it opens noticeably slower than v7 which is already annoying, then you have to find your way through that awkward first list with some random vertical horizontal options after searching/guessing some time you have to navigate to show tools or in that case show panels to finally get where you want and then after checking them the window still has to be closed and would not even close with escape but asks for a click anywhere outside.

even worse in those regards are the tool panels, here they would not escape either but clicking into the bar where you have to mouse pointer resided does nothing, no we have to navigate to the viewport and click into it for this dam window to finally disappear!!!

3
generally half of the windows dont close with escape making me frantic with each little move
for instance as already mentioned all the panel/tool gears, but also print width does not esc, which now also asks for 3 clicks while that was 2 clicks in v7. did anybody even ever look at the mac version before trying to making it as bad as it can get?

a mouse clicker paradise for logistic nightmare lovers who have nothing else to do than to watch the mouse pointer swirl about without actually getting work done… no seriously a brain numbing/knotting insanity.

i am sorry if you feel insulted, but i assure you that v8 is insulting me daily either.

[anon (am)]

What you’re describing (except the Esc key, which I haven’t tested much) has been happening for me in Windows 10 too. Thanks for posting. Agreed.

"SystemInfo-R8

Rhino 8 SR7 2024-4-30 (Rhino 8, 8.7.24121.13001, Git hash:master @ 44b9af795a5996a2a877659c9d5ef63b0da7ecfa)
License type: Commercial, build 2024-04-30
License details: Cloud Zoo

Windows 10 (10.0.17134 SR0.0) or greater (Physical RAM: 16GB)
.NET Framework 4.8.4150.0

Computer platform: LAPTOP - Plugged in [95% battery remaining]

Non-hybrid graphics configuration.
Primary display and OpenGL: NVIDIA Quadro P2000 with Max-Q Design (NVidia) Memory: 4GB, Driver date: 2-15-2024 (M-D-Y). OpenGL Ver: 4.6.0 NVIDIA 551.61
> Integrated accelerated graphics device with 4 adapter port(s)
- Windows Main Display is laptop’s integrated screen or built-in port
Primary OpenGL: NVIDIA Quadro P2000 with Max-Q Design (NVidia) Memory: 4GB, Driver date: 2-15-2024 (M-D-Y). OpenGL Ver: 4.6.0 NVIDIA 551.61
> Integrated accelerated graphics device with 4 adapter port(s)
- Windows Main Display is laptop’s integrated screen or built-in port

Secondary graphics devices.
Intel(R) UHD Graphics P630 (Intel) Memory: 1GB, Driver date: 2-18-2021 (M-D-Y).
> Integrated graphics device with 3 adapter port(s)
- There are no monitors attached to this device. Laptop lid is probably closed

OpenGL Settings
Safe mode: Off
Use accelerated hardware modes: On
Redraw scene when viewports are exposed: On
Graphics level being used: OpenGL 4.6 (primary GPU’s maximum)

Anti-alias mode: 4x
Mip Map Filtering: Linear
Anisotropic Filtering Mode: High

Vendor Name: NVIDIA Corporation
Render version: 4.6
Shading Language: 4.60 NVIDIA
Driver Date: 2-15-2024
Driver Version: 31.0.15.5161
Maximum Texture size: 32768 x 32768
Z-Buffer depth: 24 bits
Maximum Viewport size: 32768 x 32768
Total Video Memory: 4 GB

Rhino plugins that do not ship with Rhino

Rhino plugins that ship with Rhino
C:\Program Files\Rhino 8\Plug-ins\Commands.rhp “Commands” 8.7.24121.13001
C:\Program Files\Rhino 8\Plug-ins\WebBrowser.rhp “WebBrowser”
C:\Program Files\Rhino 8\Plug-ins\rdk.rhp “Renderer Development Kit”
C:\Program Files\Rhino 8\Plug-ins\RhinoRenderCycles.rhp “Rhino Render” 8.7.24121.13001
C:\Program Files\Rhino 8\Plug-ins\rdk_etoui.rhp “RDK_EtoUI” 8.7.24121.13001
C:\Program Files\Rhino 8\Plug-ins\NamedSnapshots.rhp “Snapshots”
C:\Program Files\Rhino 8\Plug-ins\MeshCommands.rhp “MeshCommands” 8.7.24121.13001
C:\Program Files\Rhino 8\Plug-ins\RhinoCycles.rhp “RhinoCycles” 8.7.24121.13001
C:\Program Files\Rhino 8\Plug-ins\Toolbars\Toolbars.rhp “Toolbars” 8.7.24121.13001
C:\Program Files\Rhino 8\Plug-ins\3dxrhino.rhp “3Dconnexion 3D Mouse”
C:\Program Files\Rhino 8\Plug-ins\Displacement.rhp “Displacement”
C:\Program Files\Rhino 8\Plug-ins\SectionTools.rhp “SectionTools”

[CallumSykes]

Hey there @encephalon,

I’m sorry your experience of Rhino 8 isn’t an improvement over 7. We strive for each version to be better than the last, and if we’re not meeting that mark, then we’re determined to fix it. Thank you for posting your pain points. I’m sure you’re not the only one with them and feedback like this is really helpful.

I took the liberty of trying each of your points with the latest versions of Rhino and have documented the differences below, so that we might explore them further to really pin down your issues and we can make headway into solving them. Please let me know if I missed anything, I opted to group by issue.

Gear Icon and Panel toggling

• I can see there’s an extra click to get to the panels in Rhino 8
• The list is smaller so you can’t see as many panels as you can on Rhino 7
• The gear and right click does seem to have identical functionality in Rhino 7 and 8

UI Lag

I cannot recreate the delay between clicking Show Panels and seeing the panel list in Rhino 8, it appears instantly for me, can you post your system info and we’ll see if someone else can replicate it.

Escaping Menus

• The Panels list in Rhino 7 closes when I hit Esc, it does not in Rhino 8, nor does the Toolbar list
• The new container menu does not close when I hit Esc.
  (These are both true for Mac & Windows)
  

When you say Print Width, which dialog are you referring to?

What other windows and dialogs does esc not work for you? If you can list some we can fix those. I tried a number of items but they all worked in Rhino 8.

– cs

[encephalon]

hi @CallumSykes thank you so much for checking through.

@CallumSykes

I can see there’s an extra click to get to the panels in Rhino 8

@CallumSykes

The gear and right click does seem to have identical functionality in Rhino 7 and 8

yes… as suggested if we could have the the function of the gear split to general issues and use the right click in the panel for individual show/hide functions that would be much faster would avoid an extra click and would give the gear an actual dedicated purpose.

@CallumSykes

The list is smaller so you can’t see as many panels as you can on Rhino 7

yes very good point, that adds a lot to the total experience being more in the way currently in v8.

@CallumSykes

UI Lag

I cannot recreate the delay between clicking Show Panels and seeing the panel list in Rhino 8, it appears instantly for me, can you post your system info and we’ll see if someone else can replicate it.

Systeminfo:
Untitled.txt (12.6 KB)

there are two issues which add to the experience with right click on tools and panels. in V7 the right click worked on press while gear worked on release, i never used the gear since right clicking in the tab is less effort navigational, in v8 it seems that both right click and gear now only work on release which adds time already, but besides that, the window appearing has an additional delay of a fraction of a second. i recorded the interaction including sound for analysis.

below in the first image the sound peaks are the mouse clicks and i set markers where the sound starts for time measure. the last marker is where the window actually appears, (i noticed the mouse pointer vanishing shortly before it pops up and the window tab of Rhino blinking, so something is going in my opinion)

i measured these 3 instances

here the results with the time in fractions of a second.

i did not record v7 now but it feels so much faster there, it does not disturb me at all

that means generally all gears are slow and some right clicks but not all, when you right click into the layer panel to add a new layer for instance the pop up appears more or less instantly also the viewport right click seems normal, but if you move to the container tabs press right click there you should notice a clear difference in speed.

here the video in case you want to look/listen

@CallumSykes

When you say Print Width, which dialog are you referring to?

i must be dreaming, i downloaded the latest version today and it seems that does close with esc now.
still right click in the tabs of panels and tools do not escape

@CallumSykes

What other windows and dialogs does esc not work for you?

i believe that should be it otherwise, besides some commands being awkward which i reported already.

[CallumSykes]

Hey @encephalon,

Thanks for the very in depth analysis of the UI Lag, we are aware of it and have it in the YouTrack system.

@encephalon

if we could have the the function of the gear split to general issues and use the right click in the panel for individual show/hide functions that would be much faster would avoid an extra click and would give the gear an actual dedicated purpose.

I’ll have a look into getting a faster way to pop up the panel toggle UI

@encephalon

window still has to be closed and would not even close with escape

I’ve created a YouTrack and fixed pressing Esc for the Toolbar / Panel Menus.
https://mcneel.myjetbrains.com/youtrack/issue/RH-81898/Pressing-Esc-does-not-exit-out-of-Container-Menus

Glad to hear Print dialogs are behaving now.

Don’t hesitate to let us know of any other issues, UI or otherwise and we’ll get 'em fixed as best we can.

– cs

[encephalon]

hi @CallumSykes i saw that you have added the esc to the containers thanks for the swift intervention! but now the right click on the panel bars does not work anymore was that intended? also its still slow, if that work on click instead of release as a first step as mentioned that would speed it up slightly, any chances?

[CallumSykes]

Hey @encephalon,

I’ve tested the 8.8 release and right click on the panel bars works for me, but it doesn’t work on the gear icon. That said, left click does. Esc also works nicely. Does this match your test or is the the actual panel icons where right click doesn’t work?

The slow issue is a separate issue that we’ll work on separately

– cs

[encephalon]

@CallumSykes

I’ve tested the 8.8 release and right click on the panel bars works for me,

me and Rhino seem to have an issue currently, i feel tricked…
the next time i checked it worked suddenly i clicked around like wild and it did not work i promise, i am not making that up ok it works now.

@CallumSykes

but it doesn’t work on the gear icon

yes thats clear i did not expect that.

ESC works splendidly now thanks again.

@CallumSykes

The slow issue is a separate issue that we’ll work on separately

is there any timeline or any further details/tracker you can share?

[CallumSykes]

Glad Esc is working nicely for you, and that Rhino is behaving now hahah. We do have a setting in Rhino that is in the advanced settings called Rhino.Options.Advanced.FailUntilUserPostsOnDiscourse to increase engagement, so you could try toggling that .

There’s not a timeline on that separate issue as I haven’t started investigating it yet to figure out the scope of the problem and its solution, but as soon as the wheels are in motion you’ll be the first to know.

– cs

[encephalon]

@CallumSykes

Rhino.Options.Advanced.FailUntilUserPostsOnDiscourse

that is a sneaky option, finally found it… no more trouble from here then

---

something else:

the document properties window does not behave well at all on mac and is such an intense pain since v7 i believe. i reported that already but have something to add and just quickly repeat the issues here if you dont mind.

one of the reported issues is that you can not resize the window, as you can see you have a bigger window on the option annotation style the window is bigger and all the other options are visible,

when you switch to hatches for example you have a much smaller window, most of the other options are not visible anymore, to find them you suddenly have to press on the small arrow on the top right which reveals a little list to click on. what adds to the bad experience is that you can not see much from the hatches and have to scroll through that tiny window for ever. there is no option to resize the window.

they should just all stay the same and be flexible in resizing them as i want.

also you can not grab that window anywhere other than the green area shown on the image below, even there would be some place next to the shown options here on the right.

that is politely said a real heap of *** and absolutely painful to use… anything that could be done to improve that?

[wim (Wim Dekeyser)]

@encephalon

the document properties window does not behave well at all on mac and is such an intense pain […]

This is on the list of things to look at. Hopefully for Rhino 9.
-wim

[encephalon]

@wim

This is on the list of things to look at. Hopefully for Rhino 9.

this not a light paper cut but a serious usability bug

“Hopefully for Rhino 9.” ? how many years are people going to wait for the properties to work normal again? i skipped v6 so that might be even longer than v7 not sure but several years for such an issue is really nothing to be proud about.

and you guys seem to take that so lightly that its not even sure if that will be even in v9? crazy… sorry.

please double check that once more.

@CallumSykes

there is one more window which does not esc. when you uncheck for the selection menu the “Show titlebar and border” and click on overlapping objects for this pop up to show, esc does nothing.

[CallumSykes]

@encephalon

there is one more window which does not esc. when you uncheck for the selection menu the “Show titlebar and border” and click on overlapping objects for this pop up to show, esc does nothing.

Can you show me a screenshot of this window? I’m having a hard time finding it based on the info

[encephalon]

selection menu?

or are you talking about the settings in the properties?

[CallumSykes]

I’m with you now. Yep, works on Windows, does not work on mac, the Esc isn’t handled and you get that nice mac “bonk” noise.

[CallumSykes]

I’ve created a YouTrack I’ll see if I can tackle soon, thanks for reporting these issues @encephalon. I’m sure they’re annoying and I’m really glad you’re sticking with us whilst we iron them out

Selection Menu does not dissapear with Esc on Mac : RH-82048 (myjetbrains.com)

[encephalon]

thanks @CallumSykes actually that one was not so annoying i just figured it out today because i was meddling with the settings a bit.

the issue described above is a long term and very annoying bug which makes setting up stuff in Rhino really painful. something so essential and its being not taken serious i really dont know what to say.

[CallumSykes]

Hey @encephalon I really do want to emphasize that we take every post, issue, gripe and bug on discourse seriously, I know it doesn’t always feel like it, but that’s because we avoid promising anything.

I have to say I agree with you, the Mac settings UI needs some work. It’s something we will be discussing and your feedback will play a part in that.

– cs

[encephalon]

through out my participation on this forum over the past 12 years in total that may not have occurred obviously enough to convince me that this might be true always. in fact if i lean a little further out being honest these words almost feel cynical… dont misunderstand that please, i really appreciate your mediating nature which you obviously have, but lets face it, if as for this instance you use the mac version on a constant basis that would impact you much more and 4 years (since release and including the beta maybe more) an awkward almost not usable interface which is supposed to set up the entire software is for me a stop ship issue at its finest and nothing to speculate over if a fix could or could not make it into a next major release which then would sum up this timespan to 6 or 7 or whatnot years if happened at all and if not hey why not V10 in then 10 years or more in total? come on.

how many people use the mac for serious work from the McNeel team other than sitting and hacking it all together, i mean for serious efficient work? has anybody got so much free time next to programming? if so then maybe thats the reason, but probably not hm? ok that got cynical now either… but I mean … i am really shocked.

that has not much if anything to do with not wanting to promise anything, it may have something to do with how to communicate that yes, but the main problem is that this issue with the properties spans over an unbelievable amount of time when in fact it should not even occur at all to torture anybody with such an unfinished UI. In an early WIP ok, I take that pain but now I really have to work with Rhino for Mac.

smaller bugs are never ok but human like natural, still nothing to be excused for, major bugs instead which hit you in the face while you are trying to run every single day and responses that dont give me any hope that this even might change in my lifetime wrinkle up my face so hard that my iphone does not trust me anymore.

I have seen many frantic people here because of Rhino for Mac recently. i can fully understand when some went full in with their honesty… in fact so full in that they got banned from the forum. but people her just want Rhino to work really well (i guess mostly otherwise what are they here for investing so much time)

again, I appreciate your soothing words, but I am really longing for Rhino to work really really, really i mean if i would write really as much as i mean it i would be probably sitting for a while longer - well.

[CallumSykes]

@encephalon

my participation on this forum over the past 12 years

Before we get into anything, I really just want to say thank you for participating all these years, that is honestly awesome.

@encephalon

if as for this instance you use the mac version on a constant basis that would impact you much more

This is absolutely true, I have to say I’m mostly windows based, although I am moving towards my mac as I like it a lot. I’m hoping myself to take some of the Rhino classes and try using Rhino, noting down things power-users, like yourself are raising here.

@encephalon

an awkward almost not usable interface which is supposed to set up the entire software is for me a stop ship issue at its finest and nothing to speculate over

@encephalon

and you guys seem to take that so lightly that its not even sure if that will be even in v9? crazy… sorry.

We’re reviewing things like this internally, we’re still focusing largely on Rhino 8 and Rhino 9 will be WIP for another few years so the scope is still open. As I said, we don’t want to promise anything, but it is something we want to improve, that being said some of these things are surprisingly hard when you get into the nitty gritty, and pleasing everyone is impossible (not that we don’t try). I would really love to be able to promise you something here, but as I said.

@encephalon

people here just want Rhino to work really well

That is always my take away, even if I see a post that is quite angry, to me that just speaks to people wanting Rhino to its best, and their go-to tool.

I haven’t answered all of your points as fully as I’d like, I’m still relatively new so I can only do so much for now , but I really hope to eventually address every one of these issues as I can.

I don’t think you should apologise (too much) for the cynicism (although I do appreciate how polite you are), we really love seeing positive feedback because it means we’re going in the right direction and it’s extremely motivating to us (we’re only human). But likewise hearing the harsher feedback stops us going too far in the wrong direction, after all, we’re building it for our users like you.

@encephalon

I am really longing for Rhino to work really really, really i mean if i would write really as much as i mean it i would be probably sitting for a while longer - well.

Me too @encephalon, please keep coming with your feedback we all appreciate it.

– cs