Rhino 8 for Mac - User Interface - UX

Dear community, dear developers,

I really appreciate McNeel’s production cycles that come every few years and only charge for real improvements. This is very fair and one of the main reasons why I stay with Rhino, among others of course. So I had no pain at all paying for the upgrade.

I just launched my freshly installed Rhino 8 for Mac.

To be honest: I’m a bit shocked now (I haven’t tried the WIP version before). As for the UI, it seems more like a downgrade now. The UX has unfortunately been a disappointment for me in the last 30 minutes.

In general, I think it comes from the (very understandable) idea of bringing the Windows UI and the Mac UI closer together. That’s reasonable and I respect that, of course.

But I fear that, at this point in time, this attempt is very much at the expense of the UX of the Mac version. I find it very worrying that very good parts of the previous Mac UI are now disappearing.
For example: After 15 minutes, I haven’t figured out how to get the layers and object properties back into the right sidebar. Maybe it’s just me, but I really appreciated this clarity in all Rhino versions for Mac (I’ve been on board since Rhino 5).

I won’t go into more detail for now, because I want to give this new UI a chance. However, I felt it urgently necessary to bring this point into the discussion.

I am writing this in the knowledge that people have certainly invested a lot of work here. My appreciation for that. I am also writing this with the intention of stimulating a constructive exchange, if the problem affects other people besides myself, and because I am convinced that honest feedback is very valuable in product development.

best for now

Ivo

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Here’s is an intro for Mac that explains the basics of the new interface:

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hi @Gijs at 1.40 into the video Brian explains that you can click and hold on the button the problem there which i also reported some time ago is that now clicking, long clicking and right button clicking does the exact same thing. i v7 you could simply click on it and it enabled the tool, now it opens up the subtools instead and you have to click all the way through to be able to use that tool. to be more specific i am talking about the tools in the left panel, i did not use the upper bar but i assume its the same.

can you confirm that? if so please log it if possible, its quite a pain :frowning:

edit: here the topic i created

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Hi, thank you. I will check that to find my way into Rhino 8.

I cannot repeat that here. You are clicking on the button right, not on the triangle that increases size when hovered? This is what I am seeing:

edit: could it be that you have a very short time for cascade delay?

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omg… nothing can be fast enough for me, but it seems setting it to 10 did not do anything good in v8 :saluting_face: i cant remember ever setting it that low maybe because i experienced the long delays for the pop up when i installed the first wip.

but meddling with that it seems that the setting feels quite a bit sharper in v7 it pops out right away when i stay just a little longer, in v8 the delay can not be set precisely, it still takes sometimes a second or whatnot no matter how much i tweak the setting and it also differs when i hide the app and come back later… meddling a bit more it also seems to make a difference where i click the curves marked red it delays longer than others.

also it seems that it is more sensitive to moving the mouse after clicking, when i move just a slight bit after clicking which happens fast due to having a fast mouse, the delay sets in and the tools pup up instead of opening the command. anyway there is something going on there which does not make it feel right.

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I think I now see what you mean, indeed something is acting weird. In Rhino 8 the delay seems to be off indeed.
RH-78097 Cascade toolbar delay seems to not work as well as in V7

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Except the flyouts are completely broken anyway, even on the Windows side. If you can’t flyout a toolbar and with the mouse button still held down, move over to the button you want, then let up to execute the command, then flyouts are essentially useless as far as I’m concerned. This also goes for the popup toolbar. :face_with_symbols_over_mouth:

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yes, that’s logged as RH-73900 Extra click needed to acces a command in a flyout toolbar

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I will paraphrase McNeel here, but they would rather concentrate on the product than on UX and as such don’t see the need to hire any professionals in UX or even just design. I know designing a cross-platform UI has a lot of technical challenges as well, but I think it is still fair to criticize some questionable decisions in those areas.

If you don’t realize the value that good UX brings to your product, then this is the result. Actually, on the way to UX maturity, the first step is recognising that UX is part of your product whether you want it or not and that hiring a professional is probably a good idea, just like you hire professional developers, managers, etc. At the end of the UX maturity scale, you become a UX-driven company. Apple is a good example of that, which is why the contrast for Rhino on the Mac is particularly stark and probably will be for a while.

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In the meantime, I’ve found my inner peace :wink: again after customizing the UI (with the help of the video) as much as possible to my needs.
I still feel that the strategy of converging Mac and Win UI was to bring the Win UI into the Mac version, which doesn’t end up too good to be honest. We saw that (in terms of the top toolbar) when V7 was released.

That said, I don’t want to offend anyone.

Just because I really love the power of Rhino, I feel pressured to share my feelings about the UI → UX issue I’m seeing more and more.

When I started with Rhino on the Mac, back with V5, it was technically weaker than the original Win version, but the UI was so much stronger that I never switched to Win. Today the Mac version seems to be as strong technically as the Win version, at the same time the user interface of the Mac version has degraded and become more and more a better Win UI. No offense to those who are used to the Win version.

I can feel that someone put a lot of effort to bring those UIs together.
I guess this person/group is more from the technical side.

If this seriously is being addressed in combination with the absolutely fair price strategy, I think Rhino could skyrocket, which must not be a aim but could be just a side effect.

Peace

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I feel like I’m drunk trying to use R8, all the toolbar timings, no right click to repeat, the icon outlines are messing with my eyes, everything just feels really touchy and jittery. Like I know what I want to do but everything is just off enough to keep messing me up. Very much a death from a thousand cuts.

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You are in a Mac thread. Rhino for Mac never had right-click to repeat.

here in V7

here in V8 its missing

in case you did not know, if you uncheck the “Enable context menus” and you then right click, it automatically repeats the last command in. V8 not anymore.

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Is it possible to remove the toolbar/container shown in the picture below?

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Yes well, this delay never actually worked on my mac at least. I could always only have either context menu or repeat command, whatever delay I chose

the delay is only when you have it checked and is for when you right click and wait - not letting go not moving the mouse. see for yourself, set it to 2000 ms and wait 2 seconds before you let go. that setting never made any sense i could think of, since when you right click and release you get the menu instantly anyway.

it might have made sense if you would want to combine repeat and context menu, but then it was not executed accordingly… or it is indeed broken.

also since i have one hand on the keyboard at all times the space to repeat works just the same if not better.

That’s the idea and how it works on the Windows side, the delay is the right button hold-down time before you get the context menu popping up, letting up shorter than that and you get an Enter (i.e. repeat last command).

ic, well then it never worked indeed…

but thinking about what else is not working are many commands which one can not complete by clicking right mouse button. for instance loft does not work. and many of these loft included do not complete with space either. for instance copy works. that has been since forever.

i wonder why such essential work flow breakers never got fixed which i keep complaining about since v5 already…

I would like to link to this post with some arguments for continuing in RH8 with the Mac version of menues and mouse-over functionality.
I have uploaded some video examples of what i am referring to.

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