V5 to V6 annotation compatibility

[BrianM]

Work In Progress
(6.0.17087.9481, 28-Mar-17)

The feature in V6 dims which shifts the dim text when there is a lack of room is a nice feature. It would be even nicer for presentation fine tuning if there was an adjustment setting to bring the text closer into the dim lines - the grip works fine but an adjustable default would save a heap of time.

Maybe also a left/right option or flip.

Another setting to force the text inside of the dim lines would help when opening V5 files - the setting could be applied to V5 dimstyles for an instant fix - the image shows a V5 file opened in V6

SaveAs or ExportSelected (in V6) both seem to change all text and dims to whatever the current annotation style is at the time of exporting. When different styles from the same file are exported together, it’s not so easy to fix, the image illustrates the result.

Another problem during SaveAs is that text blocks which originate bottom justified become top justified. .

When a V5 file, which includes various text sizes and dimstyles is opened in V6, all the text takes on the current dimstyle of the V5 file. The text is all sized correctly in V6, yet all belong to the same annotation style meaning they cannot be selected properly using the ‘Select Annotation Style’ dialog. Also looks wrong in the properties panel when the text is selected.

A block of multiline text from V5 cannot be expanded in V6 and the contraction seems a bit erratic, see example in the image.

[mary (Mary Ann Fugier)]

Hi Brian,
There is a lot here that I want to test with one of your files.

Could would you either post the problem file or if it is confidential, email it to me, mary@mcneel.com.

I want to see if the issues you report here are already resolved.
And post bugs on the rest.

Thanks for testing the WIP.
Sincerely,
Mary Ann Fugier

[BrianM]

Hi Mary Ann, here are a couple of extracts from files which hopefully you can repeat what is happening here.

DimScale Test V5 (BM).3dm (91.4 KB)

Image A. Original V5 file. Contains dimensions at 3 different scales 1:5, 1:10, 1:20 and the current dimstyle is 1:100 yet no dimensions are set to this scale. The 3 text items are set to 3 sizes.

Image B. Open this V5 file in V6 (without saving at this stage). The text is sized correctly yet the dims scaling is lost. Current dimsyle in properties is shown at 1:20, although current dimstyle is actually 1:100

Image C. Turn on enable scaling in the V6 file - dimscale corrects itself, but text is scaled up to match the 1:20 scale (not the current which is 1:100)

Image C. Turn enable scaling off again and Save as a V6 file. Text reduces in size and all becomes the same size.

Image D. Turn on enable scaling in the now saved file - all the text and dims become 1:20 and the property dialog shows they belong to 1:100 (which is the current dimstyle ) - if a dimension is added now, it is drawn at the 1:20, not the current 1:100.

In this image you can also see the problem with the dims shifting by default. Also the text has lost it’s right justification.

I hope you can repeat these examples, as there are probably a few more scenarios where compatibility is lost.

Here is a simple block of V5 text, a single string which is wrapped, play around with the drag grips in V6 to see the issues in the previous post.

TextWrap Test V5 (BM).3dm (64.1 KB)

[mary (Mary Ann Fugier)]

Hi Brian,
Thank you for the model and concise list of examples to try.

I have good news, it appears that all the the annotation issues you are reporting there have been corrected in the daily build that we test internally. That means that it should be in the WIP that you download by next week.

This was reported last Friday by Alex here. (We owe him a beer or a box of chocolates.) After much of back and forth, a few sleepless nights, I saw an internal build here on Wednesday morning that I believe solved these issues.

If these annotation features are important to you, do not save your models from the current WIP. The changes that fix the issue that you report, happen during import or open. So if you have saved and your model’s annotations are messed up, go back to an earlier version of the file.

This is what you will hopefully see next week. So you will not see this in today’s public WIP. But it is definitely something to look forward to and test next week, once the WIP is released. (But I am out of the office next week, and I want you to have these details before I go.)

1. New Model Space Scale
   We now have control over scaling in Model and Layout space.
   

   
   
   I think it look like Rhino 5. I only had to to a little dimension grip edit to get it to look exactly.
   
   

2. In the next WIP, on Options-> Doc Prop -> Annotation, you will see Enable Model Scale.This actual give one level more control that we saw in Rhino 5. You can completely turn any annotation scaling off. Also when imported, text actually gets a Model Scale of 1, as an “override” of the Annotation style.
   

   

3. Just like in Rhino 5, turning on Layout space scale could be a disaster, if the model was setup to not use this type of scaling. Text was scaled to the 1:1 height, that could be 50mm or 12". If you decide this is better, then you have some work to do to update the model, and you simply may not want to.
   

   

4. The only other issue I saw was the dimensions popping to the right, and all the arrows over lapping. I will post it for the developers. I was able to grip edit the locations of the 50’s, and override the arrow on the dim of 150. It seems to be looking quite good now.
   

   
   
   
   

I may have something wrong here since it is all new - so others can pile on and set me straight.

And I still need to look at the text wrapping issue… but I want to get this back to you ASAP.

Thanks again, Brian.
Sincerely,
Mary Ann Fugier

[mary (Mary Ann Fugier)]

Hi Brian,
Text wrapping and scaling are looking pretty good here in my internal build.

1. When text is imported from a V5 files, text is now assigned a Model Space scale “override” of 1. This is a fix in the next WIP and it is not in current public build.
   

   

2. Only model space scale is checked. Layout scale remains unchecked for compatibility with the setting this file had in V5. This is a fix in the next WIP and it is not in current public build.
   

   

3. The text size on a Detail with set to a scale of 1=1, is equal to the text size in model space. Again, you will need next weeks WIP.
   

   

4. Wrapping behavior. There are “hard returns” in this text string that prevent it from wrapping. It is easier to show you in a video. But I believe that it is working. Let me know if your do not agree.
   It is easier to show a quick clip here.

Sincerely,
Mary Ann Fugier

[BrianM]

Hi Mary Ann, thank you for looking into all this. The scaling issues fix seems to be progressing nicely, this has prevented me from doing any useful work in V6 as the lack of annotation compatibility between versions is a showstopper, so your progress is good news.

Regarding the text wrap, the test string was on a single line in V5, yet wrapped on saving. This means to edit V5 text in V6 will require a bit of extra manual adjustment. In your clip, the contraction shows (I think) the same as I see here where the word arrangement could flow better. Adjust the grip slowly to see this.

First image is the V5 original before wrapping, second is V6

[mary (Mary Ann Fugier)]

Bingo!
That was what I needed to know, Brian.
(Sorry, I missed it in the original description.)

It appears that when the multi-line text is imported into Rhino 6 WIP, there are hard returns inserted at the end of each line. They are not there when the file is open in V5.

I believe this is a bug.
I will get it on the list for the developers and post the tracking number soon.

Sincerely,
Mary Ann Fugier

[mary (Mary Ann Fugier)]

Hi Brian,
RH-38720 has been posted for the developers.

@BrianM

this has prevented me from doing any useful work in V6 as the lack of annotation compatibility between versions is a showstopper,

Well said and I completely understand this.
Looking forward to hearing about your experience with the next WIP.

Thanks again for your help testing.
Sincerely,
Mary Ann Fugier

[BrianM]

Thanks Mary Ann, picture is worth 1000 words…

[BrianM]

Here are some of the 1000 words anyway, for a background into the importance of V5/V6 annotation compatibility. There is a 100% certainty that some jobs (in my case) will traverse the V5/V6 transition period and Saving back to V5 will definitely be happening for work sharing until everyone converts to V6.

The screenshot in the previous post is the modelspace of a file with 10 layouts with details of varying scales. I do all my 2D drawing in modelspace and use layouts for titles only, except for the odd diagram type drawing where it’s useful to annotate in Layout and have a model in the detail, for example.

This particular job consisted of a master model, a set of 54 drawings, bursting with dims and text spread over 8 files. Smaller jobs would be contained within one file, I find there is a saturation point if a file is loaded up with too much linework, panning and zooming around the modelspace becomes hesitant, so I generally split the files up and position the work across all the files so that copying, pasting and worksession is always correctly aligned and not overlapping or miles away. Layering hierarchy too, is managed to avoid losing control of transferred geometry between files.

The following is off topic a bit as it relates to dwg and isn’t relevant when 2D is kept within the Rhino environment, not always possible though.

The above job involved working with colleages who worked in Acad, all these files were passed back and forth without major issue. Some minor issues arose with dim and leader alignment - i.e. dims are re-centred when opened in Acad - ok when aware of it. I also used a script to change all my Rhino grey-screen colors to their Acad black-screen and print-dependant colours, and another script to come back again.

When a file comes back to Rhino from dwg, the layer hierarchy is lost in Acad, resulting in a big layer mess, there are ways to sort that out - I tend to paste any edited work back into the Rhino original rather than over-write it, a bit time consuming but saved me having to use Acad for the 2d part of the job. A tip for checking what has been edited is to worksession the edited file over the original and select the worksession - anything not yellow has changed basically.

Another quirk with 2d linework is the way Rhino converts simple arc/line geometry into a nurbs curve if you happen to nudge a grip. For example a rectangle with radiused corners - try picking an endpoint after a stretch, anyway this goes into Acad as a spline if you forget to simplify it, causing a few raised eyebrows …

[mary (Mary Ann Fugier)]

Hi Brian,
It looks like I have some work to do.

[quote=“BrianM, post:11, topic:42660”]
Here are some of the 1000 words anyway, for a background into the importance of V5/V6 annotation compatibility. There is a 100% certainty that some jobs (in my case) will traverse the V5/V6 transition period and Saving back to V5 will definitely be happening for work sharing until everyone converts to V6
[/quote] Impressive. Thank you for the image.

[quote=“BrianM, post:11, topic:42660”]
The screenshot in the previous post is the modelspace of a file with 10 layouts with details of varying scales. I do all my 2D drawing in modelspace and use layouts for titles only, except for the odd diagram type drawing where it’s useful to annotate in Layout and have a model in the detail, for example
[/quote] Very common approach for our Rhino 5 customers, especially those who are taking the models to and from, AutoCAD and Rhino.

[quote=“BrianM, post:11, topic:42660”]
This particular job consisted of a master model, a set of 54 drawings, bursting with dims and text spread over 8 files. Smaller jobs would be contained within one file, I find there is a saturation point if a file is loaded up with too much linework, panning and zooming around the modelspace becomes hesitant,
[/quote] Is this any better in Rhino 6? You likely can not answer this question yet. Hopefully this week or next with the new WIP gets posted, you will be able to use Layouts and test this for us. There have been extensive display improvements. I really want to know if this is better. If not, I would like to get a file from you the show the issue.

[quote=“BrianM, post:11, topic:42660”]
so I generally split the files up and position the work across all the files so that copying, pasting and worksession is always correctly aligned and not overlapping or miles away.
[/quote] So a Worksession attachment works better than linked blocks here? I would like to understand this choice better.

[quote=“BrianM, post:11, topic:42660”]
The above job involved working with colleages who worked in Acad, all these files were passed back and forth without major issue. Some minor issues arose with dim and leader alignment - i.e. dims are re-centred when opened in Acad -
[/quote] This sounds like a bug. I will get it posted. (1)

[quote=“BrianM, post:11, topic:42660”]
When a file comes back to Rhino from dwg, the layer hierarchy is lost in Acad, resulting in a big layer mess, there are ways to sort that out -
[/quote] Do you save Rhino layer states and then restore to that state when you re-import or reopen the AutoCAD DWG?.

[quote=“BrianM, post:11, topic:42660”]
A tip for checking what has been edited is to worksession the edited file over the original and select the worksession - anything not yellow has changed basically.
[/quote] Visual examination! Thanks for the recommendation.

[quote=“BrianM, post:11, topic:42660”]
Another quirk with 2d linework is the way Rhino converts simple arc/line geometry into a nurbs curve if you happen to nudge a grip.
[/quote] This sounds like a bug. I will get it posted and see if we can make this better. (2)

[quote=“BrianM, post:11, topic:42660”]
For example a rectangle with radiused corners - try picking an endpoint after a stretch, anyway this goes into Acad as a spline if you forget to simplify it, causing a few raised eyebrows
[/quote] This sounds like a bug. I will get it posted. (3)

I will let you know the tracker numbers when I get them posted.
And I will also let you know if I have questions when I am writing these up.

Thanks again for the details, Brian.
Sincerely,
Mary Ann Fugier

[BrianM]

Hi Mary Ann,

@mary

Is this any better in Rhino 6?

I haven’t spent much time in V6 to date, I’ve downloaded the 05Apr update and V5 annotation is looking good so far. At first glance, all text of differing sizes, seems to be placed on one randomly chosen Annotation Style. I’ll do a more thorough check when time permits and dig out an example if you can’t repeat this.

While I was checking this and using SelAnnotationStyle, it occurred to me that it would be useful to filter between text and dims within this selection.

@mary

So a Worksession attachment works better than linked blocks here? I would like to understand this choice better.

I don’t use linked blocks so I don’t have the experience to properly compare the methods. It seems easier to select, select ByLayer from the layer panel, copy, section and otherwise extract geometry or parts from worksessions than linked block - and working on two worksessions concurrently is pretty smooth and efficient way of working.

The whole Linked block is highlighted when trying to pick a part which makes the operation clumsy and awkward, also panning/orbiting becomes jerky if the file is complex, reason enough to prefer worksession for the sort of work I do. They each have merits so ought to be considered as different tools rather than compared.

I received a file recently with missing linked blocks, I didn’t need them in this case. The warning text dots which appear can’t be selected or turned off without deleting the blocks, it would be better to somehow turn of the dots so the linked path reference remains in case it’s needed.

While on the subject of blocks, I prefer to use groups with better control over layer management and the speed at which they can be created or re-created on the fly. Saving to Acad manages to destroy grouping, it would be a great time-saver if groups remained intact when going into Acad (and back again).

@mary

Do you save Rhino layer states and then restore to that state when you re-import or reopen the AutoCAD DWG?.

I haven’t tried this approach, thanks for the tip, I’ll give it a try and see how well it works.

@mary

This sounds like a bug

(2) and (3) are not bugs, this behaviour is just the way Rhino handles curves. This was briefly discussed a while back.

Simplify Polycurve

When a degree 1 polyline becomes a degree 2 polycurve with a simple fillet radius, for example. Is there a command to further simplify the resulting polycurve into true lines and arcs joined? [image]

[brian (Brian Gillespie)]

RH-38720 is fixed in the latest WIP