Subd paradigm - Questions, Feedback and feature suggestions

Having started messing with the Subd tools, I find it weird that the tools do not adhere to existing mesh modeling paradigms. This raised a couple of questions as well as suggestions for the tools.

  1. Are there plans to include vertex, edge, face mode toggles? That would allow to differentiate double click loop selecting vertices, edges or faces as well as the creation of context sensitive tools. For instance, with extrude, you would either extrude, vertices, edges or faces using a single tool, instead of these all requiring their specific extrusion tool.

  2. Is there an toggle to disable/ ignore backface selection? If I shift window select over a the Sphere, it selects the backedges as well.

  3. Wouldn’t it make sense to create some sort of edit mode, like in Blender? In other words, it would be like entering the Subd mode, so that common hotkeys can be reused in a context sensitive way. Simple example: ex > Extrudesrf, in Subd mode: ex > ExtrudeSubd. It would be another list of Aliases/ keyboard shortcuts exclusive to the Subd mode and any other tools that are used in association with Subd workflows. Perhaps even with a single hotkey mode (i.e. pressing “C” immediately invokes the “connect” tool.

  4. Rhino vs Blender on Vimeo
    Insert edge should be like Blender in terms of showing a preview of the inserted edge loop. The fact that you need to 1) Set the mode for Ring/ Loop, 2) Select Edges, makes it much slower than: Preview > click to perform.
    Also, currently, you cannot create loops that turn corners.

  5. There should be a difference between preselection and no selection within the insert edges tool. With preselection, it should perform a “connect” operation, connecting vertices/ edges that are selected (basically subdividing the edges and connecting the newly created vertices). Without selection it should perform the loop cut as displayed in Blender. That should resolve the turn corners issue.

  6. I seem to be missing a “Target weld” tool as part of the basic editing tools.

  7. The face/ edge selection filter does not allow for shift + select to window select multiple faces at once if I am already hovering over the Subd object:

  8. I cannot replicate all of these selection methods (note blender select rings based on where you click on a face):

  9. Furthermore, I would love to see the implementation of a Gumball free workflow. Where moving/ extruding is like the Kekit addon in Blender, which allows you to constrain movement per axis or plane.

As a suggestion, I would personally stick to the modeling paradigms as found in Blender (also in terms of naming convention) because right now, Rhino is vastly different from 3ds Max & Maya, but also from Blender. This makes it harder for new users to get into it, while it is also quite a workflow breaker, as things work differently. For me personally it is nice to be able to convert meshes to Subd geometry, though in its current state, I don’t see myself using the edit tools. Let alone enjoying using them, because it still leaves a lot to be desired in terms of workflow. Adding additional modes would alleviate some hotkey/ alias problems, add additional context sensitivity to tools and ultimately enable more sophisticated workflows. I understand that it’s still work-in-progress, so I will probably come back to it in a few years from now.

Please don’t regard this as an insult to the work that went into the development of Subd, it is meant to be honest feedback for future improvements.

@nathanletwory this is to continue the discussion from the Rhino 8 development thread I am sure you can shed a light on some of my comments, since you know Blender well.

Rhino SubD implementation is different from any mesh-based SubD modelling approaches. Even though it may seem similar (working with a control net), the approach is along the lines of Rhino surface modelling. The tools integrate well across both surfaces and SubDs.

Below answers as how I understand current status, tagging other developers where I think they have better knowledge

  1. There are already the selection filters. Extrusion of SubD edges and vertices is not a thing in Rhino. I don’t know if it makes sense or is possible, @dalelear can tell you about that.
  2. I don’t think there is currently
  3. Edit mode isn’t a thing, but maybe there could be a way to make pop ups more context sensitive. I think making hotkeys context aware would be a huge undertaking. Not anytime soon I am afraid. @mikko will know better.
  4. InsertEdge along turns is something @Jussi_Aaltonen will know if it is possible or not
  5. Not sure if I understood this
  6. Maybe also something for @Jussi_Aaltonen
  7. Click and drag on an object typically means move. With a selection filter active window selection will work when over an object if the geometry sub type you’re over is not part of the active filter. For face that will make window selection hard indeed
  8. @Jussi_Aaltonen may be able to tell if determining edge loop vs edge ring selection based on click location is possible. Edge loops you already can select with double click
    9} I don’t know Kekit

This has been debated often and long, the way chosen is mostly consistent with how Rhino does surface modelling in general.

Anyway, I’ve tagged @dalelear , @mikko and @Jussi_Aaltonen who should be able to take your feedback in and respond to that with better info than I am able to.

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@Intuos - holding Alt down will force a window selection.


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@pascal Thanks, that wasn’t obvious to me yet!

By the way, I think there may be something wrong with SelEdgeRing, because it selects the edges on the other side of the mesh, even though my cursor is right on the edge on the front side.

By the way, it would be nice if you could subtract from selections using shift with SelEdgeRing active. Since Ctrl+shift selection is still free, from what I can tell, could it be used for either: SelectShortestPath/ SelectRegion (meaning fill the selection region from face/ edge A to B)?

At the moment, Rhino uses the reverse key combinations of what I am used to from other programs. I would very much welcome an option to swap Ctrl and Shift behaviours, so that Shift toggles/removes selections and Ctrl adds to selections, so the opposite of the current behaviour. :innocent:

Also, in the long run, it may be really nice if users could configure their selection modes and preferred hotkeys. For instance, I configured Blender to use shift + double click to select edge rings, shift+alt double click to deselect edge rings, ctrl + double click to add edge loops to the selection, etc.
In Blender, this is the interface of the editor, which works really well for these sort of things,
because you can customise it very precisely, both in terms of input and in terms of functions:

@nathanletwory thanks for the detailled answer! I definitely can see how the tools are consistent with the rest of Rhino and a better understanding of why it is this way always helps in the learning process. :wink:

So the goal was to work in one mode across all the various modeling paradigms, rather than creating a mode per paradigm (solid/ surface/ mesh/ subd/ sketching) like in Fusion 360. Okay, that’s clear then.

I actually prefer the latter, because tools are more direct and specific owed to context sensitivity, despite being at the expense of accessibility (you need to switch modes first, to some extent). I am a bit worried about the convolution of tools and commands that all need to be squeezed into aliases/ shortcuts to be productive. In that regard, it may, in the long run, be a good idea to rethink the UI/UX altogether for a more streamlined experience. Think of it as condensing tools to be ‘smart’ by changing their use depending on the context (selection, subd/ surface mode, etc.), like using the split command on surfaces and/ or subd and/ or curves. Perhaps moving options to a HUD, in addition to the current nested commandline operations will help as well. That would at least yield some hotkeys to be used across various contexts. Otherwise Rhino will really be a jack of all trades master of none.

By the way, if there’s a specific topic where feedback for SubD is gathered, I certianly wouldn’t mind ‘butting in’ every now and then :wink:

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Thank’s for sharing inju~ :thinking:

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Though non of it really relates to what I state of how it ought to be in Rhino, at least in my opinion.

That’s the Autodesk key layout, which is exactly reverse to what it should be (Revit, too. Super annoying).
Most other 2d/3d apps have he shift-add paradigm. Like Rhino, which is good. Autodesk Apps should add an option for this, not Rhino.
(Which they probably will not do, regarding their attitude).

Yeah indeed, though I like to think that if every program adds this bit of flexibility, it’ll all work out regardless. That way, it’s up to the user (and their past experiencmes with whatever software packages) so they can then configure everything to be in sync. Since I am already locked-in in the Autodesk way, I ask Mcneel for this :innocent:

True. I’d opt for maximum flexibility, too.
However, there are a lot of things to consider in Rhino if you freely reconfigure the modifier keys. Not sure if you can reconstruct all the default functionality but with different keys so easily.

Hello @Intuos , sorry for late answers.

Filed requests for InsertEdge:
RH-64617 InsertEdge: selection time preview of inserted edges
RH-64618 InsertEdge: allow selection of rings that turn corners

Stitch probably works for most of these kind of cases.

Rhino does not have the same set of selection methods as Blender. These work in Rhino:

  • Double click edge to select loop
  • To select part of a edge loop: select first edge, select last edge and then double click the second last edge.
  • Above works for partial face loops too
  • To select full face loop select first face and double click the next.
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