Joining SubD vertices?

Here I am, again trying to do some super simple edits to a Modo SubD model in Rhino, and man, this is incredibly frustrating.

  1. How do I merge two two vertices into one. I want the vert 2 to dissolve into the position of vert 1. For the life of me I cannot do this in Rhino.

The only way I could get this to work is snap-move Vert 2 to Vert 1 and then run _AlignVertices but that is super buggy in SubD so it didn’t work. I had to _ExtractControlPolygon and try the same _AlignVertices command in a mesh - because a faceted SubD is not the absolutely same thing than a mesh in McNeel’s world (eye roll)- and that worked, and then of course I have to convert _ToSubD again.

In Modo I can simply select first the vert 2, then select vert 1, then hit J on my keyboard for join and I’m done.

What am I missing here? There has to be a 1-keystroke way, right? Which one is it?



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Another problem with vertices…

_AlignVertices also doesn’t work in SubD and leaves gaps where there should not be any. Yet if I _ExtractControlPolygon of that same exact SubD and re-convert it _ToSubD then it works.

not_aligning_vertices_subD_gf_200623.3dm (182.5 KB)


more frustration…

I cannot run bridge because I have an enigmatic selection filter that does not let me pick edges, and I cannot change my selection filtering mid-tool.

This is just awful.


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OK, since selection filters are not intuitive and if I use them they will be hanging around later for my next tool, I will try to bridge edges WITHOUT edge selection filter, but rather just trying to pick edges on screen, that shoudl be easy, right?

Look what I have to go through to select JUST two sets of 3 edges that are perfectly visible. Let alone the fact that I have to select one set of three, then press enter, and only then select the other set of three. When they are already two separate sets of non-touching loops of edges.

Back to Modo for now… I can’t stand this. It’s the same story over and over: no one is testing this except us, your customers…

Should I try SubD again when to see real improvement? Next month? Next year? because this is not shipping quality, not even close.


Stitch command.Option - First or Second vertices.

Solving the problem:

why would you not hot key your selections filters on and off? See below-

Could picking be better? yes.
is it awful? no, not if you use the tools available to you.
Is anyone testing this? yes. yes we are. brian james and I specifically are beating on this every day.
Do we make this available to the public for them to test? yes.
will there be issues that need to be addressed because of this feedback? yes.
will we address it to the best of our ability? yes.
could we have a UI element on the cursor to indicate a filter is on? yes, great idea and I’ll write it up!

hi Inju, yes Stitch is what I was looking for.

I noticed Stitch required 6 events, just for 2 vertices:

  1. _Stitch
  2. Select First Vertex
  3. Enter
  4. Select Second Vertex
  5. Enter
  6. Stitch location input

That is 200% the amount of clicks (and required a combination of toolbar/command + viewport selection + Enter in Keyboard + Go up to the command line…)

That’s crazy!

McNeel team,

In Modo I just paint select 2 vertices (super easy to go in-out of selection filters by pressing a single key in the keyboard first) then pressing a shortcut for Join (equivalent to Stitch) and the first selected point stitched to the last selected point’s location.

Can Rhino just do that? basically cutting down the tool bureaucracy top half?


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because it requires 300% of the keyboard input that it should. Why not just hit the letter ‘e’ once in the Keyboard, instead of e + e + Enter? Tsplines allowed us to do that.


@theoutside, my overall feedback is that in Rhino everything is taking 200-4005 more work than in a production-ready sub-D modeler. Is the UX and Development team aware that you are bringing a new feature set to the market that is many times slower than what has already been invented out there? Is there awareness at McNeel of this reality? is there awareness of how this is not acceptable for most professional work? …The RSI implications alone of these workflows is shocking.


preselect them and run stitch. I have mine hotkeyed.

pick 2 verts, hotkey, enter done.

you can certainly set up an alias for that, you’d just need to hit enter instead of single stroke as in tsplines. It’s due to the basic underlying architecture of rhino that we need the enter after the alias.

Mine the e is spoken for already, so I use ee, vv, ff, nn etc…

In my case, everything works:

and also remember tsplines had a modal overlay that was super frustrating to jump in and out of…ctrl+tab if I recall to get it to turn on, and then you had to work above the glass in tsplines, and below the glass in rhino… that drove me NUTS.

I see, it seems that Rhino will not pursue the modal way of single-keystroke. So Do I have to give up on the idea that whenever a single key is required we need to embrace that a single key plus Enter/Space will have to be the most minimal Rhino will do?

Regarding preselection macro for Stitch… I cannot figure our how to get it to do what I want: send fist vertex to last vertex’s position:

yes, unfortunately, key+enter will be the best we can do.

preselect the verts, (or post pick them in order if you prefer) then slide right or left to get it land where you want, or just enter and they will average in the middle.
It’s a little nicer version of what tsplines did with stitching if you recall. There you could only jump to the first or second position, we allow you to do that or pick a spot somewhere in between.

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pre and post picking is possible depending on your needs for bridging and stitching. I typically prepick and then run the command because it cuts down a click or two.

I don’t ike this approach. You are making my vertex 1 and vertex 2 lovable and therefore prone to user error. This is CAD, I want to tell Rhino: “put Vertex 1 exactly where you already have vertex 2.”

You already have this option available in the 7-spent command line approach. I think Rhino’s selection architecture should be smarter and know the order or what had been selected so you can have consistent experience. if you have no pre-selection you see ‘first’ and ‘last’ as the only accurate target location option. If you preselect you have instead ‘average’ and the only accurate input option. I don’t see how this makes sense. Just me?


Hi Kyle, besides making a better selection architecture so we can have better selection tool I think it’s important to note all the bugs I encountered here so far:

  • AlignVertices does not work in SubD when it should.

  • I should be able to change selection filters anytime, including in the middle of any tool/command running.

  • Selecting edges should be 100x easier that it is right now. Especially when the command lien is asking for edges! Like it that Bridge example. This is broken.


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SubD is by it’s nature is not CAD “precise”. You already know this…

You can match to a curve or surface and inject some precision in to the process, but picking locations by coordinate numbers? You can do it… but not typically the goal for subd. If you need that level of precision, you’d need to go nurbs.

I’m struggling to see where in the process that you are wanting coordinate precision in a tool that is based on dragging.

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