Simple splitpin model hikes 6Mb to 92Mb file size why?

[Steve1]

Hi,
V5
my quick saving model saving at 6.8Mb , sees a split pin take 10 secs to paste in from another file, that of just the split pin made a year ago, and a save takes ages, and file size becomes 92Mb. an 85Mb hike in size for one small split pin made by myself, I can see no reason for such a simple thing to do this.

I have then remade the shafts to a new length, and they touch each other this time and attached is the file, and that pin pasted back in to a file without a pin makes it go 92Mb.

I copy paste the pin to a new file, see attached.

I then delete it and its layers out of my project, save it as v2 and its 6.8Mb again.

I then paste it into that from the attached file and save it as v3 and its back to 92Mb and taking ages to save.

Why ?
Split pin V ends causes 85Mb jump in file size.3dm (150.5 KB)

I was about to try and bend it, dont think the bend lines are responsible, but what is ?

Steve

[pascal (Pascal Golay)]

Hello - I find it very hard to follow the ins and outs of your prose very well, but I think what you are saying is:

You copy and paste the object in the file to a new file and save that file, and the file size becomes unreasonably large.

Is that the upshot or is there more to it than that?

-Pascal

[Helvetosaur]

This sounds like yet another case of copy/paste including large textures that are in the file even if the objects being copied are not associated with the textures. I think you have several posts with the same problem. This is a bug in V5/V6 that will not be fixed as far as I know, so you are going to have this happen regularly as long as you continue to use V5…

Or, it’s also possible that you have set one of the extremely fine mesh settings you have used in the past somehow…

[Steve1]

Hi
@pascal
Correct, if I take the pin in the attached file and copy paste it into my 6Mb project file , it takes a while to paste in and to save the project thereafter and that 6Mb project file becomes 92Mb.

Initially, I copy pasted the pin from the file I attach below, into my project, saw it take a while to come in, saved it, that took a while, looked at file size 92Mb.
I then improved the pin ready for a flow command, saved it, still 92Mb.
I then copied it out into a new file, called Split pin V ends causes 85Mb jump. which I attached in post #1
I then deleted it out of the project, saved file as v2 and it was 6Mb again.
I then select that split pin from the attached file in post#1 paste it in, takes a while and it saves as 92Mb again.

@Helvetosaur I look at the attached pin in post#1, I dont see any textures that have travelled with it when I copied it out of the 6Mb project file, have I overlooked textures ? has it any ?

I also now attach the original file from which I first took it.
Split Pin V ends.3dm (510.0 KB)

I see textures PictureFrame though cant see any in the file doing showall etc.
These are not there in the file attached in post#1, yet that pin also causes a 92Mb file to occur.

So, without the pin, original or tweaked, the project file saves quick at 6Mb again, paste the tweaked one in from the attached file and same symptoms, save and its 92mb again.

Steve

[Helvetosaur]

There is nothing in the file you posted that would cause this - it’s only 0.5Mb - and importing it into a blank V5 file does not make the file size go crazy.

However, if I open your file in V7, I get this:

(image deleted)

There are like 50 references to ‘missing’ images/textures in that list. My feeling is that copying/pasting the pin is finding all of those images on your computer and bringing them into the file you are pasting into.

To fix this, the only way I found is to export the pin and check “geometry only”. You will lose your object attributes, so the object will end up on the default layer, but it will no longer have the missing texture files associated with it.

[Holo]

Yeah, I ran a purge to get rid of all those pictureframe materials here, and then moved the pin legs a tiny bit apart, just in case it was some v5 meshing thingo going on too.

Exported from V7 to V5. Please see if this fixes your problem of file size bloating.
Split Pin V Holo.3dm (164.4 KB)

[Helvetosaur]

@Holo

Yeah, I ran a purge to get rid of all those pictureframe materials here,

Ah, yes, forgot that Purge might do this:

Purged 56 unused V5 materials

That definitely does it.

[Steve1]

Hi,
I run Purge in the 92Mb file, it says found 0 of unused materials, I save it, as suffix purged, and its 92Mb still

Hi helvetosaur, see PM…

export geometry only then and then take the pin into v1 before it had the pin added.

When I get to V7, and each day another happening to set me back another day or week, and this week is going off the rails, I will be free of such crazy bugs.

Steve

[Helvetosaur]

Try purging the split pin file.

@Steve1

Hi,
I run Purge in the 92Mb file, it says found 0 of unused materials, I save it, as suffix purged, and its 92Mb still

Hmm, that means Rhino somehow thinks the materials are in use… maybe? If you open the Materials panel in the 92b file and right click on one of the picture frame materials and choose “Select object(s)” - does anything get selected?

Otherwise, in that panel you can try selecting all of the materials you think shouldn’t be there and hit delete…

[Steve1]

Hi,

Open the 92mb file, go materials and its blank, select ‘by object’ then the materials panel appears, Is that what should be happening ?

I need to select an object then alter ‘by layer’ to ‘by object’ then I have access to the drop down materials.

then I have no select objects option.

this file has 1 picture frame , and is 92Mb.

so 92mb has 1 texture, 510Kb original pin many, I have no ‘select object’ option.

in my attached files, you saw many files with v7, can I do that in V5 and how ?

I dont want to have to flatten objects to default layer when copy pasting or exporting them, THEY MUST RETAIN COLOURS AND LAYERS, and I certainly dont want them dragging with them all the rasters used in their design, as I assemble them all into their final project. It would go into Gbs let alone many Mbs.

I have no way of seeing what each is, just a little circle all in same colour.

This is nuts, whoever designed it to do that ?

Steve

[Holo]

@Steve1

This is nuts, whoever designed it to do that ?

Well… I know you know this, but development goes like that, the most important stuff gets fixed in the SR’s and the rest is moved on to the next version (or the one after, or the one after that).

[Steve1]

@Helvetosaur
see images, I cant seem to find a way of doing what you say regards deleting materials.

92Mb has no textures, just doesnt make sense.

unable to progress the job for the actions of a split pin.

Steve

[nathanletwory (Nathan 'jesterKing' Letwory)]

@Steve1 if you upload your 92MB to Rhino - Upload to Support then tech can have a look to determine why the bloat happens instead of having to try guessing back and forth what might be the issue…

[Holo]

@Steve1

unable to progress the job for the actions of a split pin.

Just export as STEP and import that, or try an older Rhino file format.

[Helvetosaur]

@Steve1

see images, I cant seem to find a way of doing what you say regards deleting materials.

You need to open the Materials panel.

[Steve1]

Hi
@Helvetosaur I thought clicking on the toothpaste called materials did that ? as per my screen captures.
I dont have a tab called materials in V5. I now add in that tab, for the original I see many PictureFrame entries, select eachone and ‘select object’ zoom to object no zoom, select then all, do same, nothing zooms, thus they dont exist as objects.

I am uploading this as Nathan suggests, as this situation is beyond me.

I pray that V7 doesnt allow an object when copied out from one file to another, to carry with it ghost baggage, the entire pictureframe rasters and make the recipient file go from 6Mb to 92Mb. Or that a mesh setting for the file should travel with the object and do the same.
All I had changed was Mesh angle from 0 to 15deg, I will now go through all my files where I wanted smooth and not faceted curves and circles and alter 35 to 15deg, or to smooth and fast. Just wish Rhino mesh settings created nice circles and curves to start with.

Steve

[ShynnSup]

Rhino’s texture handling has always been terrible. In every possible way. Not only file size has been an issue, but also missing files, relinking, sharing files, using the cloud, texturing and even applying materials.

I will probably just post this separately soon, as it broader than just file size.

The whole interface lags behind for seconds the moment you start working but some high res textures. Every time you open the materials panel they all have to load and it takes ages. Every time. What to change material? Also takes ages. Switch to render mode? Also takes ages.

My conclusion is Rhino is not done to work with textures.

The whole embedded texture system is extremely confusing.

The logic should be super simple: By default all textures are never saved into the file, no unzipping into temp folder, just looking for files in their actual link direction.

Now, in case you want to share a file with textures, there should be an option to “export scene”. And thats creates a folder with all textures and the rhino file.

As simple as that.

Textures should never, ever, by any reason, increase file size.

[Helvetosaur]

@Steve1

I see many PictureFrame entries, select eachone and ‘select object’ zoom to object no zoom, select then all, do same, nothing zooms, thus they dont exist as objects.

Yes. It seems that Rhino thinks they are applied to objects but they are not. However, if you go back and read carefully the posts above:

In posts 4 and 5 above two different ways were suggested to remove the materials from the split pin file before importing it into your other file.

In post 8 there were instructions to delete the picture frame materials manually from the bigger file if Purge did not work:

@Helvetosaur

Hmm, that means Rhino somehow thinks the materials are in use… maybe? If you open the Materials panel in the 92b file and right click on one of the picture frame materials and choose “Select object(s)” - does anything get selected?

Otherwise, in that panel you can try selecting all of the materials you think shouldn’t be there and hit delete…

It seems to me that all the time you have spent wrestling with bugs and limitations and making long posts about a nearly ten-year-old version of Rhino that will not have anything fixed you could have spent more fruitfully getting your new computer running and working in the current version…

[Steve1]

I have to get this job done before win10 rebuild, and a split pin doing this is cruel.

I will see what McNeel say of what was submitted as well.

It seems Shynn Sup is revealing its not users at fault but a rhino weakness. Its always me to blame it seems so thats comforting to know its not me.

I will work my way through all the purging and shaking off of materials that should never be there anyway, and see if I can move fwd and finish this thing. One little split pin shouldnt cause such chaos.

Steve

[nathanletwory (Nathan 'jesterKing' Letwory)]

I hate to bring it to you, but it is again meshing settings in your document that cause the bloat. The three selected parts in the screenshot below take 85MB of the file size…

Now, if I set document properties meshing settings to Jagged & Faster I end up with a 1.7MB file.

Even setting it to Smooth & Slower saves the document as only 2.3MB

My guess is going to be that you have a template set up such that it uses insane meshing settings.

Each time you see something like this happen, please first check your document meshing settings, followed by a check for custom render mesh settings on objects you just pasted from another document.

Holes still look good with Smooth & Slower

And IMHO even with Jagged & Faster, although there a bit of jaggedness is visible

But mostly only when zoomed in very closely

Addendum:

Now how to find complex objects yourself? Use the _Audit3dmFile command and inspect your objects. Look at the amount of bytes used by an object. As you can see from my first screenshot I highlighted for you three objects that together take 85MB of the file (two objects with over 20 million bytes, one with over 45 million bytes). Then copy the Id of each object in turn and use the command _SelID with each Id in turn to select the largest objects. Then inspect.

Furthermore you can check the embedded images and materials table for info on how much data that part takes up in the file. In this case the verdict is: not much, a measly 340KB.

  Embedded image Table:
    EmbeddedImage[0]: /D drive files pending replacement cos IO error/Agisoft Exports RAF Bomb Trolley Mk1a Chock Channel Bomb bearer/_MG_18_7315 RAF WW2 Roller Chock splitpin crop.jpg
    1 embedded images, 339175 bytes (offset 203934 to 543109)
  Texture Mapping Table:
    0 texture mappings, 24 bytes (offset 543109 to 543133)
  Material Table:
    material[0]: 
    material[1]: Picture Frame
    2 materials, 1669 bytes (offset 543133 to 544802)

In any case we essentially already addressed this type of problem, and gave many, many pointers on how to fix in this not-so-old-thread from this year: Effect of meshes on save time Rhino V5 v V7 . The problem is exactly the same.

I know some users like to blame images, but in most cases the culprit is elsewhere. Therefor it is important to learn how to investigate your files. From now on make Audit3dmFile your best buddy.