Section Style print color

[GabrielB (Gabriel Bouzelos)]

Hi, I am sure this has been discussed before, but I believe it’s about time to prioritize the feature below or a possible workaround. We need to have an advanced dialogue for section style as well.

A limitation is the one below:

We work with a hidden-dark display mode, with black background. There is no way to set section-style display color and print color. So if we set it to black, it’s not visible while working in a black background. If we set it to white, it’s not visible in the layout print. A workaround is vaplan and vasectionplan, but we prefer the raw hidden mode print preview and print through layout.

Personally I would be prefer section style to be managed entirely bylayer, but it seems to be a Rhino limitation for now. I think I’ve posted a similar wish to a relative Rhino-related thread. Please, if you are able to contact Rhino-devs as well for this, it might help.

Another way to bypass the rhino limitation may be to add similar functionality in VA style dialogue.

Is there any chance to have this feature soon?

[fsalla (Francesc Salla)]

Hi @GabrielB, VisualARQ has already the attribute “Section Boundary Print Color”, missing in the Rhino Section styles. We could implement also the “Section Hatch Print Color” but I think this attribute should be added to the section styles by the McNeel development team.

[ng5_Alex]

Hello, i am glad this is being discussed.

@GabrielB

We work with a hidden-dark display mode, with black background. There is no way to set section-style display color and print color. So if we set it to black, it’s not visible while working in a black background. If we set it to white, it’s not visible in the layout print. A workaround is vaplan and vasectionplan, but we prefer the raw hidden mode print preview and print through layout.

Add to this issue that if you set in any given layer properties display color to Red and print color to black, only projections are displayed black in layout (live plan and section views in Hidden mode with print preview on) while sections are incorrectly displayed in Red, or any display color given.
Only workaround i found for this is to override for every layout the color settings, which is well…
Somehow this is not high on the bug list to solve.

I agree with the OP, as i have too suggested in any opportunity given, everything should be controlled by layers. It is IMHO the simplest and quickest way to work and make changes, without UI clutter (everything is in one place the layer manager and not in every style dialog, in multiple tabs for multiple styles you want to print and display in layout the same way) .

best
alex.

[GabrielB (Gabriel Bouzelos)]

I’d suggest VisualArq Dev team to consider implementing “Section Hatch Print Color” too, asap, prior to McNeel’s work on it. I do not believe McNeel’s DEV team are going to implement this before R9 launch.

If VA development team is able to implement this soon (depends on the difficulty of it I suppose), it’s going to unlock very important (and dump) limitations, such the one I (or/and Alex) described. Moreover, I believe VA focus is the architectural work, when at least in Greece (I am sure @ng5_Alex agrees on that) 80% of Architects or other specialty’s Engineers work on a CADish 2D workflows, where layer-name/properties indicate information about material etc. In my humble opinion, such implementation (especially the layer one) would attract more users to VA and unlock DWG export layer scheme logic to other collaborators (who rely on this very logic).

I agree with @ng5_Alex that layer for each is the best approach. If it can be implemented all the way soon enough, I would say that it would be great. If not, at least the Section Hatch Print Color should be impelemented, otherwise any workflow is limited - for instance LOD system via grasshopper automations.

We’ve already reverted all the template files back to white background even though we struggled enough to engage with black background. I know it may seem not an important factor, but the workflows we are trying to develop are relying on small settings, and often we fall into small-dump limitations of Rhino or VA, which often break the chain of the architecture of any automation.

Anyway, “Section Boundary Print Color” is not present in the Rhino Section Styles, so VA “Section Boundary Print Color” exists alongside with it, with a more precise approach in print widths. Why not to have VA “Section Hatch Print Color” existing alongside with Rhino’s one?

[GabrielB (Gabriel Bouzelos)]

Hey Alex,

@ng5_Alex

Add to this issue that if you set in any given layer properties display color to Red and print color to black, only projections are displayed black in layout (live plan and section views in Hidden mode with print preview on) while sections are incorrectly displayed in Red, or any display color given.

yes I agree. Hatch and Boundary should totally set by separate layer, for sure. I’ve struggled enough, especially when the number of layers is large in a project, it’s very difficult to sync all together. I’ve fell into an interesting workflow related to this post but I cannot find the MLAV docs they had presented online, maybe @antoine3 could help us on that. This workflow had an interesting logic, overcoming some limitations, but it was relying on VAplan-section and not hidden mode to layout prints logic.

[ng5_Alex]

@GabrielB

Hatch and Boundary should totally set by separate layer, for sure

Well first, as noted in the linked post, i am expecting to at least be able to preview in layout whatever colors and print widths i have set in both projections and sections (and hatches given the option like we suggest).

So yes, regarding hatches i support your suggestion because its not only the color, but also the print width. At this point in many styles only solid hatches can be used, because all other hatch styles (grid and/or other non solid patterns) plot to thick in case of lets say a wall style that has a thick print width.

Hatches have some draw order issues too. As seen in the linked post and others, many times their draw order is messed up obscuring curves. This has been solved by Asuni team, but i am still getting random pdf plots with messed hatch draw order here and there.

@GabrielB

This workflow had an interesting logic, overcoming some limitations, but it was relying on VAplan-section and not hidden mode to layout prints logic.

I am trying to apply live plan and sections in our workflow, and avoid if i can VA Plan and Sections. I also tried to come up with a solution in gh to automate en masse style and/or other changes, but end up facing this bug at some point.

Well, lets wait and see. I feel confident about VA crew, they keep improving things and many times are head of Mcneel, showing the way how to solve issues.

[fsalla (Francesc Salla)]

@ng5_Alex

Add to this issue that if you set in any given layer properties display color to Red and print color to black, only projections are displayed black in layout (live plan and section views in Hidden mode with print preview on) while sections are incorrectly displayed in Red, or any display color given.

I don’t get this behavior if the Section boundary color is not set to “By Object”:

Screenshot below is done with the viewport in Print Preview

[fsalla (Francesc Salla)]

@ng5_Alex

everything should be controlled by layers

I agree. Unfortunately we don’t have control on the Rhino Section Styles dialog, so any attribute missing there (such as the Print Width, the Hatch Print Color or the Boundary Print Color) needs to be implemented by McNeel developers.

[fsalla (Francesc Salla)]

@GabrielB

I’d suggest VisualArq Dev team to consider implementing “Section Hatch Print Color” too

We may add this attribute in a VisualARQ 3.x update. But only in Rhino 8. This will be only available in the VisualARQ Section Attributes section (in the Properties panel, or in the Object Styles dialog). We can’t add it in the Rhino Section Styles dialog, so this attribute won’t be available to be set to a Rhino Layer.

[ng5_Alex]

You dont get this behavior because you are testing something completely different.

I am talking about live plans and sections in layout, hidden mode with print preview enabled, you are testing perspective view with print preview on with clipping plane or VA live plan section (i cannot tell from the screenshot.

I will upload a similar file with defaults like from the original post for you to check.

print display.3dm (4.7 MB)

In this file here is a layout screenshot with live VA plan view enabled in Hidden mode print preview enabled. Two layers are used “Default” and “Walls-Structure Components”

The geometry to the right is a rhino solid cut by VA live plan view. Here are the section settings
.

Boundary color is by default to By Object (wtf?). So when set to Black everything is displayed Black, but the option that should exist here is By Layer (Print Color) as a default. Problem is the opposite now. Correct print preview display for sections, wrong color (black and not cyan) in viewport. This is a rhino issue - limitation.

The red geometry is VA wall style generic with the following settings

Everything (where the option is available) is set by layer. For section Boundary, since By Layer is not available i choose by Projection assuming that this setting will adopt the Projection settings which are set to be By Layer (see arrows). I guess VA finds nothing in section style in rhino layer, thus no print color to adopt (though it should get the layers Print color).

If the answer for all this is to set in VA Styles the Section Boundary Color Black, it is unacceptable, because then if we decide to change the print color of layer “Walls-Structure Components” that is used in 100 wall styles, then we need to edit in 100 styles their Print color in Section Boundary option.

In Short if the print color in a given layer A is Set to Maroon then every option about printing in every whatever item option uses the given layer A, should be by Default Maroon and only accept an override if needed.

Made a quick test to attempt only by layer in a single new wall style

by layer onl.3dm (4.7 MB)

Same issue in viewport, sections are black and not by layer color, but now you also get no print widths (scaling doesn’t work in rhino layer section style) and as already discussed draw order even to this simple print is messed up, with hatches being over curves.

Page 1.pdf (45.8 KB)

[fsalla (Francesc Salla)]

CASE 1

Rhino polysurface:

@ng5_Alex

Correct print preview display for sections, wrong color (black and not cyan) in viewport. This is a rhino issue - limitation.

I don’t see any error here.
First of all, in the Section Styles dialog, if you set a color to the section boundary and a color to the section hatch, these are the colors you will see in Display and in Print preview (and therefore in the printing results). Being an issue or not, this is how McNeel developers have designed it.

In the case of your polysurface, which takes the section styles by Layer, it has a Black color set to its section boundary and section hatch, so that’s how it prints.

The print preview shows the sectioned part black, and the projected lines in Cyan (the Layer display color), and black in print preview.

VisualARQ Wall
The wall section boundary and section hatch is set to By Projection, which has a Color and a Print color set to By Layer. The Layer (“Walls-Structure-Components”) is red in Display and black as Print color. The wall shows red in display (either boundary and hatch), and black in print results. What it seems to be wrong is the wall section hatch color in print preview, because it shows up red instead of black. (We will revise this).

@ng5_Alex

If the answer for all this is to set in VA Styles the Section Boundary Color Black, it is unacceptable, because then if we decide to change the print color of layer “Walls-Structure Components” that is used in 100 wall styles, then we need to edit in 100 styles their Print color in Section Boundary option.

If you manage the wall layer section styles By Layer, everything should work as when you assign the section styles to Rhino geometry by Layer as well. The “only” problem of doing it this way is that Rhino section styles lack from these attributes:

• Boundary Print Width
• Boundary Print Color (different than the “Projection color”)
• Hatch Print Color (different than the “Projection color”)

CASE 2

@ng5_Alex

Made a quick test to attempt only by layer in a single new wall style

by layer onl.3dm (4.7 MB)

Each wall layer is taking the section styles By Layer. As it happened before, in the printing result, the colors are correct, but the preview of the section boundary color seems to be wrong. Taking a closer look, the section boundary appears as a thin line above the projection edges of the wall, which is what you only apparently see in the print preview. So it might be an issue with the print preview order or the line-weights. We will need to investigate it further.

[GabrielB (Gabriel Bouzelos)]

Maybe I am wrong here, I’m in a rush. Despite the things below, I can see that there are some print errors when printing from layout to pdf. I’ll come back on this.

First screenshot: is in hidden - no print preview mode (not layout)

Second screenshot: is in hidden - with print preview mode (not layout)

As far as I understand, it should display the opposite result. It seems the section style (rhino’s feature) does not work properly for print preview –> for print.

Third screenshot: wall layer style attributes

[ng5_Alex]

@fsalla

I don’t see any error here.

Regarding colors I did not see any error too. Rhino is displayed as expected in layout, both projections and sections are black. In my opinion there are issues with print width because scaling does not work as expected in rhino (layer) custom section Style.

@fsalla

The wall section boundary and section hatch is set to By Projection, which has a Color and a Print color set to By Layer. The Layer (“Walls-Structure-Components”) is red in Display and black as Print color. The wall shows red in display (either boundary and hatch), and black in print results. What it seems to be wrong is the wall section hatch color in print preview, because it shows up red instead of black. (We will revise this).

Red Display and Black print color, thus if print preview is enabled in layout the wall sections along with their hatches (as you agree) should be black and NOT red.

@fsalla

The “only” problem of doing it this way

Although i would prefer to set sections styles in Rhino layers, atm for me these are not the only problems, that’s why for now i prefer to assign sections in VA. As already noted section print widths are not managed ok with rhino section styles. The scaling, although a nice idea, is counter intuitive and the suggested workaround to assign custom linetypes is pita.

@fsalla

As it happened before, in the printing result, the colors are correct

I never questioned printing colors in pdf. I always make it clear they print ok.

@fsalla

So it might be an issue with the print preview order or the line-weights. We will need to investigate it further.

The order is correct. Sections should be above projections. But line weight is not ok.
If you see the section style of Layer 02 the section boundary has a scale value of 3, which proves my earlier point that scaling for section boundaries does not work as expected. The gray section curve should be 3 times the black projection.

@fsalla I think you found the issue. Please see for the file with VA Walls what happens

print preview off (as expected)

print preview on, when zooming in same issue like you pinpointed in case of the gray section boundary. Though i insist with print preview on no red geometry should be displayed at all.

Hopefully we are close to resolving this.

Thank you,
alex

[fsalla (Francesc Salla)]

@GabrielB The print preview of line-weights in the model space are a bit unpredictable, since there is no reference of paper scale in the view. It’s more reliable in the Paper space.

[fsalla (Francesc Salla)]

@ng5_Alex it’s all clear. We know what we need to fix from our side. I’ll get back to you when these issues are solved.

[ng5_Alex]

Hello,

testing version Version 3.9 RC1 i report that the issue with the color in layout with print preview on has been resolved.

First using section styles from the layer options we have

So colors are displayed with print preview on and printed as expected.

What remains is the draw order when printing to pdf (see Page 1.pdf), where i was expecting the cyan curve to print on top of all others since its print width 0.8 is the thickest.
Page 1.pdf (7.1 KB)

Also print widths for the sectioned parts do not work, a known rhino issue and limitations, to be discussed later.

Unfortunately when using section styles through va options with default values from the template, somehow we lost the hatches colors in print preview on, they all come out as black no matter what we set in Pattern color in VA options, but they print ok.

For example in the following test i just changed the hatch color pattern of Retaining - Concrete 300mm wall style from black to Aquamarine.

I tried this with an old file, same thing happens, all hatches displayed black.

Regarding the OP discussion for hatch print properties it seems that with recent update posts in myjetbrains the issue regarding the boundaries is being resolved, unfortunately Rhino 9 only, but no settings for hatches yet, unless this hatches issue is being tracked in another RH issue case.

best
alexandros

Layout out display colors print previe on_section styles rhino.3dm (5.1 MB)
Layout out display colors print previe on_section styles VA.3dm (4.6 MB)

[ng5_Alex]

This might be rhino related. I reverted back to VA 3.8.1 version and test the initial file (print display.3dm) of this post only to find out that hatch are displayed black with print preview on, when they did not in the past.

Today a rhino update rolled out, which i accepted to be installed. I cannot go through another installation now to go back to an earlier rhino, but if anyone is behind the latest rhino please check if this file from earlier answer gets hatches display ok with print preview on in layout.

print display.3dm (4.7 MB)

[fsalla (Francesc Salla)]

@ng5_Alex

find out that hatch are displayed black with print preview on, when they did not in the past.

@ng5_Alex This works fine now. The hatch print color of the walls is red in display, and black in print:

Print preview seems to be fine as well:

[ng5_Alex]

Hello @fsalla

yes but same thing happens if you set a specific color to the hatch. It prints correctly but print preview stays black no matter what.

[fsalla (Francesc Salla)]

@ng5_Alex you are right, this is not working well yet…