Layout Scaling R7

Could someone please direct me to a great video that @mary posted somewhere?
Or help me with this mess? When I go to Options->Document Properties->Annotation Style->Inch-Decimal, only the model scaling shows.

Where is layout scaling??

Here’s the model

Here’s the Layout Page (Ugh)

And the file
CJM Stage Gear Plot.3dm (80.7 KB)

Thanks in advance --carl

Hi! There is no layout scaling, only model scaling. That’s enough actually, because you set the font (and all other sizes) in the annotation style to be exactly what it should be on paper, and the model scale following that.

Try to reproduce this view by selecting “Annotation Styles” and not an individual style:

Prepare to be amazed! :wink:

Duh… amazed! (Things I thought I knew…)
This adds to the confusion, though. Where do I set the layout scaling, and what do I need it for?

Hi Eugen -

You set the scale of the detail.

As long as you set your sizes based on what you need on your layout, you don’t. It’s for when you have based the sizes on the model space and want the layout to look the same.

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To be honest I’m surprised you made it as far as you have without needing it… but I think it’s because you annotate in layouts (which honestly, I might start doing as well).

I’m going to sit down again and investigate that chapter real thorough until it finally makes sense.

I found Mary’s video on layout - it’s fo R5 but there is additional info for 6 and 7. Here’s the wiki page for R5 with all the info. PDF and videos.

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Makes total sense, from my humble user’s point of view.
My mantra:
2D works should happen in a 2D environment - a layout!
That’s even possible since long time already, but glitchy.

Btw. I’m disappointed that R8 section tools output only to model view, not layout. I frown upon having to toggle extra layers to hide 2D stuff somewhere next to my model. Just doesn’t belong there.

Archicad and the likes do all this in such a clean and straightforward manner… also annotation scale. Just works. You never have to worry about such things.

Rant off

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Rhino currently follows the CAD (specifically AutoCAD) the gold standard approach.

2D and 3D that relate to the full size model geometry belong in model space. This is a divergence from manual drafting, if you are old enough to remember. When you were drafting on a piece of paper you scaled the linework with a triangular scale to fit on the selected page size.

When CAD came on the scene in the 1980’s, you were now drawing full size. This has not changed, in CAD or Rhino today, you draw full size. So if a building is 100’ x 50’, you created curves 100’ x 50’. From here, you can extrude and build 3D geometry, if required.

How can you print 100’ x 50’ to a standard page size? You can scale at print time or scale the detail views on the layout.

The layout represents the sheet of paper you put in your printer. On the layout, you create views of the model called “details” and assign a scale to the details. So the detail, you add here may be assigned the scale 1=48 or 1=96. Now this means that in 1 unit on the layout contains 48 model units. So the scaling is set to the detail, and you can additional details of the same geometry and assign different scales. For example, like a detailed plan of the mechanical room at 1=24 that will be 2x as big.

This is where Enable Layout Scaling enters the picture. This setting allows the text and dimensions to appear appropriately scaled in all details, even with different scales. The height of the text is controlled by the the annotation style or a property overrides.

Model scale only applies to the model. However, there are times when the “unchecking” layout scale and using the combo of enable model scale and the model scale value give better results. Specifically I am thinking of importing an DWG, where the model is already set up with text that is supposed to be scaled by the detail scale. When Rhino Layout scale ignores this, the text gets “insanely large.” See details here.

To the layout, you add 2D details that do not related to model geometry: title blocks, schedules, notes, table, stamps … you can also add dimension that snap and scale to geometry in the detail view and notes that you only want on this one layout.

Because the Rhino 8 section drawing represents the full size model it belongs in the model space. It can be arranged on the layout with detail views. Currently you need to do this manually, someday… there may be a wizard to help arrange these.

Hope this review helps.

Mary Ann Fugier


Apologies to the OP for perhaps continuing the discussion longer than anticipated. If you have any more trouble please don’t hesitate to ask; I’ve recently learnt the in’s and out’s of all this stuff myself not too long ago. Once I figured everything out I realized that Rhino is actually pretty alright… especially if we get a more powerful text tool :wink: .

Very rational and I more or less agree except for…

That… Every program that has separated 2D and 3D comes with some “bonus” features. One of my favorite bonuses was critical information disappearing.

In Rhino specifically, only a few things are stopping me from doing everything in Layouts:

  • The glitches - which are a avoidable if you avoid doing certain things… but what to avoid is not well documented anywhere).
  • Performance - Only a concern for those of us with slower computers, but sometimes things can get a little laggy in more complex layouts.
  • And a special class of annotations that anchors directly to actual geometry: Grid Lines, Elevation marks/indicators… stuff like that.

Annotating in model space also allows us to utilize the auto-generated auto-updated 2D line work (from the section tools and VARQ’s). Using stuff like this is archaic but not so bad if you can figure out a good system. I myself have figured out an ‘okay’ system that definitely needs work, but beats using Revit at least.

You would be amazed at how many people don’t draw in CAD at full size. I was forced to use such a system as recently as 2017. They used a “base” scale of 1:96 (1/8" = 1’-0"). If you wanted to draw something at 1/2" = 1’-0" for example, you’d have to draw it 4x it’s actual size. They set Dimassoc to 0 (regardless of which scale they were using, even the ‘base’ scale)… I encourage anyone who’s curious to try that setting for themselves if they want to feel my pain.

I bought Rhino less than a year ago and use it to create 2D and 3D for CAD/CAM for my CNC machines.

My CAD drafting started with AutoCAD in 2000 doing shop drawings for fabrication, including bench work and programming CNC router in architectural mill shops.

Layout? It would be nice for me to know how to print an occasional 8-1/2 x 11 or
11 x 8-1/2 . My HP Designjet 600 plotter sailed long ago, although it would be nice to have full size guitar plans to hang like NBA Championship banners in the bench room :joy:

It was certainly entertaining to watch the dialogue on my post, and the resulting solutions (opinions?). Apologies accepted.

Thanks to everyone!

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Thanks for the explanation, Mary Ann!

…this, plus what the help file says:
" Enable layout space scaling: When checked, annotation text and arrows in detail views will display with a static size in Layouts regardless of the zooming ratio of the detail views."

…explains it. I forgot. In fact, it makes sense to leave this setting on all the time, because zooming in a Detail should normally not change the size of annotations.

Oh boy… you got me started here with the whole “Layout & drafting” chapter… A massive topic, that, although some issues were resolved, still needs some serious debate.
Let’s take this to another thread.

Best regards