Toolbars issue: Poor navigation within cascaded buttons in RH8

Hi.
I have been a Rhino Mac user since 2015.

I bought the new RH8 as soon as it was released, excited to try out all the new features. But honestly I havent used it at all, because I hit a wall right away with the toolbar menues.

I tried to post some sentiments about this , and patiently waited for the first service release… but this particular issue - or design choice ! - seems to remain ignored or unanswered by McNeel.

So I have purchased a mouse-pointer software, hopefully to demonstrate what I experience on my end here…

I am now certain that we are not talking about a bug, but a definite design or - programing choice, that Rhino UI from now on will omit the most basic menu logic in MacOS.

And I have to question WHY ??

Why spend such humongous effort to follow suit with Apples new Silicon chipset, and at the same time totally ignore how Mac users have navigated MacOS since … forever there even was Macs on the planet ??

I can tell PC users mostly dont really care much about this, and I suspect the UI designers may not even notice what they are (not) doing here, since this may be a very in-significant factor on a PC.

But I assure you, it is NOT an insignificant issue on a Mac.

I am off course talking about the basic MacOS mouse-over > fly out submenues.

the logic is simple: Listed menu items, with no-nonsense arrows that indicate a sub-menu is present, and it will spring open as you hover your mouse to the menu item with the arrow next to it.

This is perfect for exploring all menues, to see what is there, and find new stuff you DIDNT know about. Very important factor, with Rhino offering thousands of genius tools and commands !

I have made a little demo video to show any interested PC user what i am talking about, and I will sincerely hope that McNeel wil take this issue a little more serious than being indicated so far !

Attached video comparing my “workflow” with first RH7 , and then RH 8

In this attached video I am trying to demonstrate the ease of surfing around through many menues and submenues with this MacOS menu logic (present in Rhino 7) and how cumbersome and downright impossible it is to explore the content of menues and submenues in RH 8. It seems this new UI- logic is assuming the user knows specifically what tool that are aiming for, and thus wants to make the path super short.

But still, you have to click at least twice, and in some cases 3 or four times to get to a tool, while in RH7 you can just click ONCE, and hold, and surf your way towards the desired tool, and release mouse.

Maybe take some notice in such a one-click feature, no matter how much you prefer PC click-aways and precise pointer gestures, to hit ridiculously small corner arrows…

If there is some hidden setting that I just havent found to restore this basic MacOS menu logic and function, PLEASE LET ME KNOW !

Left clicks is BLUE and right clicks is RED.

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I have found this post about the development of Rhino UI
Please notice that this is still referring to Rhino Windows migration.

What is going on ? What happened to catering to the Mac user base ?

Is Rhino becoming a Windows software, with a wannabee Mac attitude , just to keep some revenue ?

Hi Hans - the goal is to unify, as much as possible, the UI on both platforms. User confusion , serious workflow inconsistencies for users working on both platforms, training and documentation headaches and inconsistencies make this an obvious and necessary change.

-Pascal

As stated earlier and in many places, the Rhino UI is neither Windows nor Mac. It’s just Rhino. The way the toolbars etc. work is not a Windows standard any more than it is a Mac standard.

Hi @ohlers,

All our products include a 100% satisfaction guarantee. If for any reason you are unhappy with a product purchased from us, return it to where you purchased it immediately for a full refund.

Best,

– Dale

I am very well aware of the goal, and I actually support that very much , to unify and optimize UI, workflow and documentation. Dont get me wrong, just because I am frustrated, and please do not also ignore or disregard my efforts to visualize and inform about how i see this subject, in this post, just because Im frustrated.

Im trying to point out here, that there is a very good and purposeful benefit of a one-click, mouse-over > flyout submenu. And from where Im standing, with 8 years of using Rhino for Mac, it is a steep regression to suddenly see its all gone, and no-one seems to care. At least not what I have seen, or read from answers and posts from McNeel.

Arguing that Rhino is “just Rhino” is not really true, since it HAS been a very nice working Mac version all the way… well, at least for me. And Im sure PC version users have some stuf they are very concerned about if it should suddenly be omitted , right ?

Unifying , mean unifying, right ? taking whats best from both previous versions, and adding even more cool stuff.

Well, i hope I have made a clear case here, what I think what was pretty darn good in the previous Mac version UI, that SHOULD be considered implemented in this unifying process, if you continue planning selling Rhino to the Mac platform, on MacOS systems, with basic MacOS menu logic still going on since …

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wow, dale… Is that your reply , that I should just f… off and leave the rhino platform, if im unhappy whit something so very basic in this new unifying process ??

You should know that its only because I love this software so much , and use it every day on a proffesional basis, and have based my entire artistic career around Rhino, that i care so much about how this change will turn out !

Im really chocked about this new attitude. I thought McNeel was all about listening and being interested in their user base.

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Hi @ohlers,

Sorry I offended. You seem pretty disgruntled - just wanted to know you have options.

I’ve logged a wish to have an option to use the old behavior. I don’t know how much effort this will take.

https://mcneel.myjetbrains.com/youtrack/issue/RH-78667

– Dale

I would call it “deeply affected” - and I m sorry too, i I come across as obnoxious…

Still, my main purpose is to inform… and learn, if this menu-subject is something you guys are even aware of could be a major issue for a lot of people, myself included.

So far, I don get that impression, and thats maybe why i start feel really affected , because Rhino is really important platform for me in so many ways.

And in general, im totally in love with Rhino… so… there you have it …

Hi Dave

I saw your logged item.

I understand you discern between menues / sub-menues and toolbars / sub-toolbars?

So… just to be precise (or trying to, because im not that much into programming lingo :slight_smile: )

It doesnt matter to me if the fly-out is a menu or a toolbar , because I can set the toolbar view as text and icon, which then will appear as a list (similar to a menu)

the main point is, that the sub-toolbar now covers the rest of the toolbar, the way it is positioned now, when it opens.

As a consequence, one cannot explore other sub-toolbars, without having to click-close that first sub-toolbar… and actually I havent even found out yet to even do that…which is also very annoying.

I would suggest, that any sub-toolbar simply opens up to the right of the main toolbar, and that the navigation can be click-hold / mouse-over to open sub-toolbars, and that they close again, automatically, when the hold-mouse-over leaves the tool in the main toolbar.

It is the mouse functionality that is key focus here, not a question of having old mac-menues back.

Sorry if i was not being specific enough, i was hoping my video would demonstrate this mouse-click-functionality, or menu-logic as i call it in terms of UX

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Every discussion about UI is completely useless until McNeel hires some competent and MacOS UI designers.

Hi dale. Im really sorry if we got on the wrong foot of each other here.

I would much appreciate if we rather focused on the issue, and stayed solution oriented.

I see now from your logged issue, that there could be a misunderstanding.

It is important to clarify, so this issue do not get ignored and perceived as “just too much work, or impossible” - which i actually dont think it is…

I would ask you to clarify this in your logged wish ? perhaps with this following suggestion?

ISSUE:

  1. The position of the cascaded button (and its sub-toolbar pallet) is blocking the view from the main toolbar.

  2. it is not possible to hold-click mouse-over to cascade a button

SOLUTION:

I suggest to work within the new RH8 design logic as it is now, to solve those two issues.
Thus any user that prefers only Icons, or only text can easily have such settings with no problems.

  1. simply place the cascaded button, (and its yet un-floated sub-toolbar) to the right, clear from the view from the main toolbar, but still close, so one can mouse-over to the sub-toolbar (see RH7 example in attached screenshots)

  2. Mouse-click-hold mouse-over action, to cascade buttons would be greatly appreciated. One click , instead of three !

  3. If these two suggestion are not implemented, there should at least be an option to click-close the cascaded button, so that one can get back to the main toolbar, without opening any tools, and continue seaching inside another toolbar ! (That would yield to 4 clicks then for each spring-open action, but still … better than present)


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:+1:

I agree! i work on both platforms mac / pc and there are some elements which work better on the mac which have been lost. Reducing the number of mouse clicks is what i want, on the mac the right click to repeat the last command has come back with last update but now i’ve lost the the list of previous commands which i used to be able to get by right clicking on the view tabs in each window on the mac . Why not make it like the pc version and enable right click in the command line box like the pc this would be a unified look and work flow between both platforms.

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Doesn’t right click and HOLD the right mouse button down get you the context menu after the specified delay has elapsed?

What about a zero click like this:

if you have this enable this right click is no longer Enter or repeat last command.

what program is that?

Xara Designer

Are the tool-bars opening on mouse-hover (no-click) ?

I assume you then have to choose / open a tool by clicking it ? That is one click

On Mac you “activate” this mouse-over feature by left-click-hold , and then open the tool by releasing the click again… one click in total

It is a very smooth navigation :slight_smile: