[fwiw, i just realized the difference between the trackpad and mouse problems I’m seeing-- they’re actually both behaving the same it’s just that the only way to zoom on the trackpad so that it mimics mouse navigation is to use 2finger pinching for zooming… when you do that, the behavior is the same (though it’s sometimes awkward to pinchZoom-- this is probably something that needs to be addressed in rhino for mac… that being the ability to have zoom-to-cursor via a modifier key.]
so that aside:
if zooming changes the target then this is broken on mac…
though i suspect you’re saying it does and i’m saying it doesn’t because there are actually 3 different (maybe more?) concepts of zooming in rhino and we’re talking about different ones.
the ‘Zoom’ i’m talking about is what happens when you use the scroll wheel on your mouse… in that scenario, the target will not move forward/back but it can move up,down,left,right (panning)…
the Zoom (i think) you’re talking about doesn’t solve the issue either-- it just moves the problem to a different place. (plus, it doesn’t zoom-to-cursor which introduces other navigation problems)
(there’s another zoom (which it true zoom in camera terms) – on mac it’s shift-option-command-RMB but i think that type of zoom can be left out of the conversation… it’s changing focal length and that’s not whats needed here)
– or, are you saying that zooming with the scroll wheel on windows does in fact change the target point? or that the camera is ‘object aware’ – that is what’s needed and i still can’t tell if this is a mac only thing or core rhino… maybe i should find someone with windows rhino nearby so i can try it there
hmm… it probably won’t even appear to walk if you have the view set up right…
make the camera visible so you can see it in top view while navigating in Perspective (i think we’re all doing this already)
in perspective, rotate so you’re looking at objects from the side instead of looking down at an angle… (in other words, try to make the line of sight parallel with the cplane… )
when you’re set up like that, you can see that the target doesn’t move in/out… only side to side…
or do this… set the view as above (and it doesn’t have to be ‘perfect’… just not too extreme of a downward angle)
shift-RMB to pan the view… watch the target.
ctrl-RMB to zoom the view… watch the camera
place cursor on the left or right side of the viewport then Scroll wheel zoom
the scroll wheel zoom is a combo of shift-RMB and ctrl-RMB
[edit] oh, @SamPage , you’re on windows, right?
ie- I’m still trying to determine if this is a mac thing or rhino thing… as in- if it’s a mac thing then it should be easier to fix… if it’s a core rhino thing then it’s a bigger issue since I’m basically requesting the camera to work differently – beyond just ‘settings’
Right- if your cursor is offset from the current view target, the target will move as you scroll. Is there more to it than that? I think that explains the OP’s initial complaint. It does not fix anything but that is what is happening, right? Or am I being dense again? I just think that on a track pad, the effect may be more noticeable.
the original post wasn’t trackpad related… I brought that up but finally realized a trackpad requires 2-finger pinching to mimic the scroll wheel… (ie- no longer discussing trackpad vs mouse behavior … just camera behavior)
basically, the complaint is that the target isn’t moving towards the object when you zoom towards it… if it did, you’d be able to zoom towards an object then rotate around it-- currently, in many situations if you try that, you’ll zoom towards an object but when you try to rotate around it, it effectively pans the view. (does that make sense?)… at which point, you’re more/less lost in space and are required to manually reset the camera.
– if you use the other kind of zoom, you’ll often experience the same thing except opposite. the target will be far behind the object so when you try to rotate around it, it’s effectively panning.
the target point is just ‘dumbly’ being placed… if I’m zooming towards an object, that is my personal target and the camera target should correspond… the target shouldn’t necessarily go to the middle of an object (such as the gumball thing mentioned above) but it should move closer to the object…
if it were more intelligent, it would be aware that there are objects in the scene. (the camera does recognize objects already as seen with the dotted outlines when using the _Camera> show command. )… it would recognize that there’s an object behind my cursor which I’m zooming towards and move the target towards it.
Right, it zooms to the cursor but, and maybe this is it, if you put your mouse over the object it will zero in on the object side to side, so to speak, but not in depth- it does not know about the object, only cursor location. I think this is the same in both Windows and Mac, but at the same time, I am not sure what, if anything, ought to be done to fix it - I am not sure what being smarter would actually mean. One thing I can recommend in general, though, in perspective views is to use Zoom Target (with osnaps) and not Zoom Window - this keeps things much more under control. I understand this does not help the dynamic zoom, but it is a good way to get around in Perspective. Also, somewhat off topic, once the scene gets pretty crowded and I am in the midst of the scene with the camera, i.e. camera and frustum are small compared to the scene, navigation can be much easier in a parallel projection.
(Also, in case it helps, zoom without moving the target at all: Cmd-Option-Shift RMB, ZoomLens command…)
heh… i’ve been wanting to talk about this stuff for a while now but i never took the time to truly figure out what the camera is doing in rhino and/or how the behavior compares to some of the other apps i’m used to… i feel like i’ve jumped into it too soon and i’m basically learning about the camera as the thread goes… but i also think it’s ruining my chances at properly pleading my case in a concise manner
so, i’m going to hold off the topic for now until i can first understand what i mean when i say ‘the camera should be smarter’…
i’ll be back
[EDIT-- deleted post… it was real long, real boring, and the conclusion was that the idea wouldn’t have worked]
yep, trying that out now… it works good (though, currently, AA is required to be turned off when using it on a macbook)… i was previously using ZoomSelected when i needed a camera fix but i think zoom target will be better for me… one obvious advantage: i can use Zoom>Target while in the middle of a command.
i like that i can click on a surface as my target and the cursor ‘sees’ it… i was worried that it might see through the surface and go somewhere on the cplane way back there
thanks for the suggestion…
(and really-- if i can ingrain this one- which should be easy enough… i might quit worrying about this other crap altogether …so now, i’ll talk about the trackpad instead )
how do you feel about switching the trackpad/zoom behavior…
(rhinoPreferences-> Trackpad-> ‘Use two fingers to pan and rotate’ = YES)
Current Behavior:
• two finger pinch= Zoom to Cursor (same as mouse wheel)
• cmmd + 2finger = Zoom (not to cursor)
Desired Behavior:
• two finger pinch = Zoom
• cmmd + 2finger = Zoom to Cursor
(ie- switch them)
reasoning-- most people (i’m guessing) use the mouse wheel to zoom in most situations… it offers the ‘best’ or most desirable behavior…
you already have two fingers on the trackpad while rotating/panning and it’s much easier to just push the command key to get zoom instead of switching you trackpad hand to a pinch gesture… also, if you have to zoom more than one swipe’s distance (similar to rolling a mouse wheel more than one time), it’s a lot easier to do multiple 2finger pushORpulls than it is to do multiple 2finger pinches…
(also, the other zoom (same as option+MMW) which is option+2finger is already set to zoom-to-cursor… so doing the same thing with the cmmd+2finger zoom offers consistency)
This is a big issue, regardless of Windows or Mac, or using a mouse or a track.
I’m traveling right now, so I can’t play with settings, but there are two desired behaviors and these are perhaps ultimately less about zooming, than they are about rotating one’s point of view.
A) Examine object: zoom in on object then rotate around it. This works okay now with Zoom Selected.
B) View scene: this is harder and not good currently (unless I’m missing some kind of command either for Mac or Windows). Simply put, in perspective for an architectural scene, like an enclosed space, one simply wants to be standing in that space and turn their head up, down, and around.
I’m imagining some kind of command like Rotate Camera or Look Around.
Instead of this, what happens is that when trying to look around one gets a slow and painful panning effect, or the view rotates wildly off center and one is displaced through walls. My guess is that due to the cone of view, the camera is further in front of the scene than what is shown in the view.
But, people are different than cameras, thus what is shown in the view should somewhat resemble what people see from their eyes and the fixed point from which they are standing.
Again, if there is a way to currently achieve this, please help me out!
hey Dave,
yes, you can achieve this in rhino… better than any other application i’ve personally used.
i know in this thread it may sound like I’m saying “rhino’s camera sux compared to other apps ” (or whatever) …but i’m really not… it’s pretty great actually and you have a lot of control over it… that said, when offered such wide variety of control, there’s going to be a bit of learning in order to make certain things happen…
in this case, it would be easier to show via video… i’ll make one a little later.
i’m pretty sure “a more intelligent” camera is not the right way to describe it… in this example video, the camera isn’t reading my mind or predicting my desires or whatever… it’s just doing things which are all available in rhino currently only implemented a little differently…
basically, it’s putting the capability of Zoom>Target into the default camera (and doesn’t require you to select a window as Zoom>Target does… the window is just the view which is currently being shown…
to me, it just makes navigating a lot easier/faster since you can move the target with just the scroll wheel and cursor position… and maybe more importantly, without even thinking about it… as in- i used the example application for 10 years and never thought about target position etc until now because there was no need to… it just worked
This was actually in the V5 beta (or WIP?) for a while, wasn’t it? I seem to remember it didn’t work as well as we had hoped and got pulled. It also didn’t update the target in the middle of a command.
@pascal: Finally was able to try Rotate Camera. I didn’t really see any appreciable difference from right-clicking and rotating around.
What would be nice is to simply “stand” in one spot in a 3D space and look around. The goal is to look about a captured space without being thrown outside of the walls when rotating the view.
Technically, it would be more like the view that is presented (the gate) would always be the center of rotation, rather than rotating the camera (which is located further back from the view that is presented). I’m not finding any way to do this in Rhino, unless I’m missing something obvious.
What Jeff is describing in his video (thanks Jeff!) is similar, and possibly the same as what I’m also describing. I’d have to try it “inside” a space to see if it does not throw one outside of the walls when rotating.
Not knowing what application this is in the video (sketchup?), as Jeff is suggesting the target simply auto-locates to the center of the view in the gate, making this more natural to use. This behavior would be a VERY nice improvement if possible to activate in Rhino.
Yes, this is MUCH better! The only slightly odd part is that if you let go of the LEFT mouse button, you have to hit spacebar to reactivate the command. Might there be a way to make this sticky somehow?
… just camera behavior)
)
” (or whatever) …but i’m really not… it’s pretty great actually and you have a lot of control over it… that said, when offered such wide variety of control, there’s going to be a bit of learning in order to make certain things happen…