Rhino 8 for Mac is a massive regression in UI, UX and function

[Forrest_Radford]

Having been a Rhino 5 user since the beta for Mac in 2012-ish I was recently pushed to upgrade as the software was no longer working on my new M1 chip Mac.

The beta of Rhino 7 seemed really similar to Rhino 5 and I decided to upgrade to 8 when it came out. Boy what a disaster. Who in their right mind decided that changing the entire design of interface for Mac users to that of the PC was a good idea? This is an absolutely massive regression. I remember the first beta of 5 that as you types the commands showed in the centre - pure bliss and such a good UI for Mac users, only to be removed and moved to the left side… not horrible, but not as good for sure.

You guys were on the right track by designing for the user base and experience of Mac back then. Instead you have continued to push the Mac experience towards PC. If I wanted a PC experience I’d have a PC, not a Mac!

Rhino 8 is such a radical change, to align it with the way a PC works has created a horrible user experience, even if visually it looks similar the experience feels so different. You know that design isn’t just how it looks right? It’s about how it functions and now I’m surprised by things that I would normally do not functioning as expected.

To alienate an entire platform user base for what feels like an arbitrary reason or at the very worst one that makes no logical sense from the perspective of a Mac user does Rhino no favours. At first I thought “oh maybe there’s a choice between Mac mode and PC mode for those who might be coming from PC” but surprisingly this isn’t the case. This at the very least for such a large UI UX change should have been an obvious option to give.

Typing in commands doesn’t work the same, right clicks don’t work the same, menu’s in different places, functions not familiar. Why would I want to use a piece of software that doesn’t work the way it has for over 10 years.

It adds insult to injury to pay for a new software that’s not being supported anymore, only to have the new one slap you in the face with a whole new way of working whilst Marketing Material hails it as a big improvement (for who?) and stinks of cost saving unification rather than focusing on platform based user experience.

I’m incredibly disappointed and think this will finally push me to start using Blender and fusion. It’s just such an uncomfortable experience to use Rhino on Mac now. I just don’t get it, what were you thinking (other than this will save us on development costs)? If this isn’t fixed I think I’ll be asking for a refund and my licence to be nullified. I’ll work out a way to get Rhino 5 to work and stick to that whilst actively advising my colleagues in PD and ID to look elsewhere if they’re used to the Mac version.

Sorry for the rant, I’m just really surprised and disappointed in this and holding back will do this point I want to make no favours.

[anon (am)]

@Forrest_Radford

Instead you have continued to push the Mac experience towards PC. If I wanted a PC experience I’d have a PC, not a Mac

At the risk of sounding like I’m just piling on to no one’s benefit, I think there are windows users like me who suspect the inverse. I believe you.

Among many good ones in your post, a critical point I’d like to highlight is:

@Forrest_Radford

the experience feels so different. You know that design isn’t just how it looks right? It’s about how it functions and now I’m surprised by things that I would normally do not functioning as expected.

I insist on hammering this as politely as possible and with as much time as I can manage to spend on such hammering - and I’m on Windows 10. Actual use case functionality matters far more than appearance to new users, and this cannot be too hard for an established, independent software company with an essential product like Rhino to ensure before it releases a new version.

(Tangent (sorry @Forrest_Radford): I wish the developers had either spent more time and money on paying more people to test R8 before releasing it all janked up. Too expensive to hire more people? Can’t be. Really? If so, charge more for Rhino. Or just charge me personally more to upgrade - $400 for a commercial upgrade is a pittance for what I still get out of it despite the rakes I find myself stepping on all over R8 today. Higher price alienates users with less money? Sure, I get it - but at this point I’m considering asking the developers to tell me what computer to buy so I can avoid some of the puzzled responses I get when I post my complaints. I’d rather be proud and excited to pay for a great new version instead.)

Let it be known: Rhino changed my life for the better when I discovered it. I NEED it for my work. I want it to succeed instead of tripping over itself.

SystemInfo-R8

Rhino 8 SR4 2024-1-30 (Rhino 8, 8.4.24030.15001, Git hash:master @ 97577baf4e4ae40c7f2ed3ef4e802db24f2e82ae)
License type: Evaluation, build 2024-01-30
License details: Cloud Zoo
Expires on: 2024-03-04

Windows 10 (10.0.17134 SR0.0) or greater (Physical RAM: 16GB)
.NET 7.0.0

Computer platform: LAPTOP - Plugged in [100% battery remaining]

Non-hybrid graphics configuration.
Primary display and OpenGL: NVIDIA Quadro P2000 with Max-Q Design (NVidia) Memory: 4GB, Driver date: 12-1-2023 (M-D-Y). OpenGL Ver: 4.6.0 NVIDIA 537.99
> Integrated accelerated graphics device with 4 adapter port(s)
- Windows Main Display is laptop’s integrated screen or built-in port
Primary OpenGL: NVIDIA Quadro P2000 with Max-Q Design (NVidia) Memory: 4GB, Driver date: 12-1-2023 (M-D-Y). OpenGL Ver: 4.6.0 NVIDIA 537.99
> Integrated accelerated graphics device with 4 adapter port(s)
- Windows Main Display is laptop’s integrated screen or built-in port

Secondary graphics devices.
Intel(R) UHD Graphics P630 (Intel) Memory: 1GB, Driver date: 2-18-2021 (M-D-Y).
> Integrated graphics device with 3 adapter port(s)
- There are no monitors attached to this device. Laptop lid is probably closed

OpenGL Settings
Safe mode: Off
Use accelerated hardware modes: On
Redraw scene when viewports are exposed: On
Graphics level being used: OpenGL 4.6 (primary GPU’s maximum)

Anti-alias mode: 4x
Mip Map Filtering: Linear
Anisotropic Filtering Mode: High

Vendor Name: NVIDIA Corporation
Render version: 4.6
Shading Language: 4.60 NVIDIA
Driver Date: 12-1-2023
Driver Version: 31.0.15.3799
Maximum Texture size: 32768 x 32768
Z-Buffer depth: 24 bits
Maximum Viewport size: 32768 x 32768
Total Video Memory: 4 GB

Rhino plugins that do not ship with Rhino

Rhino plugins that ship with Rhino
C:\Program Files\Rhino 8\Plug-ins\Commands.rhp “Commands” 8.4.24030.15001
C:\Program Files\Rhino 8\Plug-ins\WebBrowser.rhp “WebBrowser”
C:\Program Files\Rhino 8\Plug-ins\rdk.rhp “Renderer Development Kit”
C:\Program Files\Rhino 8\Plug-ins\RhinoScript.rhp “RhinoScript”
C:\Program Files\Rhino 8\Plug-ins\IdleProcessor.rhp “IdleProcessor”
C:\Program Files\Rhino 8\Plug-ins\RhinoRenderCycles.rhp “Rhino Render” 8.4.24030.15001
C:\Program Files\Rhino 8\Plug-ins\rdk_etoui.rhp “RDK_EtoUI” 8.4.24030.15001
C:\Program Files\Rhino 8\Plug-ins\NamedSnapshots.rhp “Snapshots”
C:\Program Files\Rhino 8\Plug-ins\MeshCommands.rhp “MeshCommands” 8.4.24030.15001
C:\Program Files\Rhino 8\Plug-ins\RhinoCycles.rhp “RhinoCycles” 8.4.24030.15001
C:\Program Files\Rhino 8\Plug-ins\RhinoCode\RhinoCodePlugin.rhp “RhinoCodePlugin” 8.4.24030.15001
C:\Program Files\Rhino 8\Plug-ins\Toolbars\Toolbars.rhp “Toolbars” 8.4.24030.15001
C:\Program Files\Rhino 8\Plug-ins\3dxrhino.rhp “3Dconnexion 3D Mouse”
C:\Program Files\Rhino 8\Plug-ins\Displacement.rhp “Displacement”
C:\Program Files\Rhino 8\Plug-ins\SectionTools.rhp “SectionTools”

[JKayten]

I’ve never seen so many negative reactions to any other upgrade, but then that’s the point after all. This so-called upgrade is a messy WIP project at this point with more self-inflicted mess than could be anticipated. It’s bullshit to be pressured to buy in to something I don’t want to use until it’s finally usable. Maybe a year from now? It’s pathetic

There’s some major denial going on with the development team.

[the_eraser]

@Forrest_Radford

Who in their right mind decided that changing the entire design of interface for Mac users to that of the PC was a good idea?

Windows people, of course

[the_eraser]

@JKayten

It’s pathetic

Exactly the right word.
Pathetic.

[the_eraser]

@JKayten

It’s bullshit to be pressured to buy in to something I don’t want to use until it’s finally usable.

You’re right.
It’s almost a fraud, at this point.

[diff-arch]

@the_eraser

It’s almost a fraud, at this point.

Y’all are crazy!

[JKayten]

What’s the point? What do you gain from making others wrong?

[diff-arch]

@JKayten

What’s the point? What do you gain from making others wrong?

What do you gain from spreading misinformation and being rude?

[JKayten]

I get the impression the main demand came from educators desire for an easier time of it teaching the application.

[Marc (Marc Gibeault)]

If everything (I know, never use never, everyone, everything, always…) some things were changed to your liking, maybe not everybody would find this an improvement.
Just sayin… I don’t have a strong opinion on the subject.

[JKayten]

I didn’t ask for any changes ‘to my liking’. I’m talking about changes made to the detriment of a great number of loyal long-term users. And prefacing your comment with ‘everything’ is a bit of snark imo

[dan]

Hi Forrest-

There’s a lot to unpack here, but I’d like to reply given the amount of emotion expressed here - justifiably so. I share many of your views. I did want to comment on one particular (let’s call it) “historical” issue that might shed light on the thought-process behind the somewhat radical UI, UX changes in Rhino 8. For the moment, let’s set aside the reasons for failure - we can discuss that later - if you’ll permit me.

One of the mandates of the first Betas of Rhino for Mac (way back when - well before I started work here) was to experiment with some UI/UX departures from Rhino for Windows. Depending on your perspective, some were successful; some not. What resulted in Rhino 5 for Mac was what many Mac users considered a fairly Mac-like experience. It sounds like you fall into that camp and I share that view.

As Rhino 6 and 7 (for Mac) matured, little-by-little, one of the major pain-points we kept hearing was how hard it was for educators (and I mean that really broadly…even your co-worker might be in that role) to bridge the Windows/Mac divide. This basic thing was the true spark that started what might have become a bit of a fire at the moment. The intent (and I do still think it’s very much in the “intent” phase) is the same…make it easy to jump from Windows to Mac and vice-versa and make it easy to communicate about how to use Rhino without the cross-platform friction. Clearly we still have a long way to go.

@Forrest_Radford

“oh maybe there’s a choice between Mac mode and PC mode for those who might be coming from PC” but surprisingly this isn’t the case.

I wish we’d done a better job of exactly this as I think this transition - though never perfect - would have been much less alienating.

@Forrest_Radford

It’s just such an uncomfortable experience to use Rhino on Mac now.

Agreed.

@Forrest_Radford

Sorry for the rant, I’m just really surprised and disappointed in this and holding back will do this point I want to make no favours.

No apology necessary. As difficult as it is to read this, I’m glad you were still willing to type it out.

Now, I could go on to tell you what we’re working on for 8.4 and 8.5 (we hope some of the glaring bugs will be squashed) but I’d rather stop short. I will mention one thing: you can still get the old-skool Rhino 5 for Mac command pop-over in Settings > General > Command Window > Use command options dialog.

[the_eraser]

@dan

Now, I could go on to tell you what we’re working on for 8.4 and 8.5

Will I be able to navigate a 1 or 4-box model in standard Rendered mode with my new M2 mac?
I reported that “'“little””" issue last summer, no news since.

Do you also think I can finally use the shortcuts without Rhino prompting random commands for me?

Will I be able to rename f****ing layers without having to recall / reset my window setup?

Do you think the toolbars will be finally usables?

That would be nice for a $1000 software and x.5 release that isn’t a beta anymore

[Helvetosaur]

@the_eraser

@Forrest_Radford

Who in their right mind decided that changing the entire design of interface for Mac users to that of the PC was a good idea?

Windows people, of course

Well, you might be surprised to learn that a whole bunch of people at McNeel (at least the ones I know personally) use Macs as their personal computers. So I think that comment is probably unfounded.

@JKayten

It’s bullshit to be pressured to buy in to something I don’t want to use until it’s finally usable.

Who’s pressuring you? Nobody is forcing you to buy anything. V7 will continue to run for as long as your OS will support it. Skip V8 entirely and wait/hope for V9 if you wish.

[the_eraser]

@Helvetosaur

Who’s pressuring you?

Silicon?

[Helvetosaur]

@the_eraser

Silicon?

Complain to Apple.

[the_eraser]

@Helvetosaur

you might be surprised to learn that a whole bunch of people at McNeel (at least the ones I know personally) use Macs as their personal computers

To check their emails and surf the web, because of the status symbol?

[Helvetosaur]

@the_eraser

To check their emails and surf the web, because of the status symbol?

Now you’re just being stupid.

[the_eraser]

@Helvetosaur

Complain to Apple.

I use a lot of software compiled for Silicon that works SUPERBLY.

Rhino is just the worst code piece of software on mac. Ever.