One More SubD Symmetry Request - Use case

Hi Brian,

Thanks for bringing these to my attention, let me see if I get this right…

  1. There’s a tool called 3DFace in Rhino (I didn’t know). Where is this besides being an obscure command? …I’ve found it. It’s in the mesh creation toolbar!.. and now I have to remember that it will also starting next week it will be in the surface toolbar (also? or a different one?). Ok. I’ll try to remember that!

  2. There will be a MergeFaces tool. Not to be confused by MergeEdge tool , that does something completely different to Nurbs boundary edges, not mesh edges, correct?

  3. Bridge… Yeah I did find it last week by typing it in the Command line when I was in a ‘I’m feeling lucky’ mood. It does work with LowPoly edges, but not with SubDs, correct? or was it With SubDs but not with Nurbs? I’m old I get confused. Also speaking of confused, this is not to be confused with the Loft (SubD output type).

  4. “QuadRemesh for conversion of NURBS Breps to subd with symmetrical quad layout” that will break symmetry the minute I move one control vertex. Got it!

  5. “Cap support for planar holes and Pipe support for subd with quad caps” I’ll have to see how I make sense of finding those too.

  6. “Keep the feedback coming, this is the time for sure to impact subd in v7.” …unfortunately I don’t have a lot of time for impact. I have work to do too. You should hire a few ‘impact wenches’ if this is the right time. You know where to find them, right?

  7. “The core minimal viable feature set that will release as 7.0”
    I always like to ask 2 questions to any engineer who loosely throw a me the ‘minimal viable’ jargon:
    Minimal viable to whom? Minimal Viable according to whom?

…like I said, your post confirms that I might be right that there’s nothing usable (for human types) in the forseeable future. Now I have to decide if I train the team in dead-endish Modo, or if I put them to the extra-pain of learning Blender.

Working with software is hard. For everyone. I totally feel your pain, I just want you to also be aware of ours.


  1. The UI flow of any of the new features, what they are called or where they live, is in flux but there are separate YT reports filed to make those things easier such as letting you run one command to use 3Dface > patch and putting that command in the Subd toolbar. The Subd toolbar would also be a great way to see some of these tools all in one place too. You have to occasionally run toolbarreset though to make new icons show up.

  2. MergeFaces is a command that works on subd now. You might have to wait for the latest v7 WIP which should go out today I think. You can also just ctrl + shift select edges and hit Delete.

  3. Bridge is in the subd toolbar and will make a perfect juncture not a separate object like Loft would. However if you have the control nets of two subd srfs aligned, Join will also make them one subd.

  4. Symmetry with the QR is unique to that tool and will use the bounding box center of the selection and the active Cplane for orientation. It is not connected to any interactive symmetry tool for subd modeling which has yet to be worked on.

  5. Subd toolbar or just run the commands as you would normally and set the output to subd in the command line.

  6. Okay, thanks for what you do have time to add. Many of us in support actively use these tools and lobby for and file user requests we hear as well as those we make up on our own.

  7. Minimal viable to those who speak up :slight_smile: and show examples clearly of what is missing currently.

Humans vary greatly I find, hopefully the tools will work for your humans as well as others. I’ve used the Blender low poly to Rhino subd workflow many times in real work. It’s pretty good if you know Blender and can deal with the back and forth. I like their 2.8 UI a lot too FWIW if you get it into your workflow. I’m not in pain, I love this stuff :heart_eyes:

One last thing I have to make a video on that I’ve found invaluable already. Did you know you can use Pull and Project on subd control points and verts in the v7 WIP!? This allows for snugging up to existing geometry, oh and it works with History if you don’t delete the input.

Hi Brian,

Thanks for the context.

Trust me, we do not find the traditional cube-slapping workflows very friendly or very useful. I’m all for this new approach of curve-based workflows and in a familiar interface. Especially if we have history. It’s juts feels a bit too ‘early adopter’ yet. If you can make some videos that would be very welcome.

Speaking of history…

If I’m editing the input curves of this loft:

but I want to look at this model with the normals pointing up (orange is my backfaces’ color), flipping normals should not break history:

…also why is my SubD patch so far away from the input curves? (I colored the curves red and green)

Also I need a way to toggle between SubD and low poly cage. I tried making my own macro for it but it’s too unreliable. When is that coming?

That’s the problem! We also need more people who love design and getting shit done, and who want all software clickety-clack to disappear so they make tools that are more intuitive. I sort of hate this shit, but I need to live with it. You know what they say about ‘Rhino, Death and Taxes…’

I’ll keep remind you guys when things get out of hand (when time allows of course).

Use Flip on the parent curves and you won’t break history. The srf normal is due to their direction.

Subd geometry needs an extra tangent point at the ends of the curves to match them. Has to do with being smooth and what not. Use the ‘subd friendly’ option when drawing the curves. The subd loft will then match those.

This is filed as and has been lobbied for heavily by among others our own Kyle @theoutside

I’m into those too and use my BFA and teaching experience daily to try and help Rhino become a better tool for artists and math geeks alike I promise. Thanks for your feedback as always please make a new thread for any new topics, I think we hijacked this one from symmetry :slight_smile:

True, can we move this to a new thread please? I have more!!!

BTW, I just saw this regarding Minimum Viable Product, and I think it’s genius:


Sure, just make a new post/thread in the Serengeti category.

I like that graphic too but I would say the definition of the terms is subjective and relative to any given product and user. An open dialog between user and designer/developer is I think the best way to achieve the image on the right. Thanks for your input!

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I am also looking for SubD symmetry, but that only mesh editing is symmetry, SubD control points are not.

Very good job done until now, the subd tools work perfectly.
The only feature I can not find concerns the “simmetry” command for sub-d, very usefull in the old TSplines… please create this command …

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SubD command symmetry is called Reflect, then choose an axis, then side you keep then it goes well.
The trick to work efficiently is to draw using X or Y symmetry axis in this case you just have to choose them in Reflect option, or to draw an axis to always keep the same reference, in this way updates of symmetry will be easier
Hope it will help you

Thanks for your prompt answer,
but by symmetry I meant the possibility of inserting a symmetry axis or a radial symmetry on a SubD, (as in TSplines) in order to work on a part and update the remaining part or parts.

Thanks for the feedback. I’ve added your vote to an open request for the Reflect command to support History.

In the meantime you would need to run Reflect again after editing but the axis or reflection plane is remembered.

RH-55845 is fixed in the latest WIP


This is a huge improvement! It’s also quite interesting to have the choice to use a symmetry plane locked to the axis system. Things can get pretty wild quickly with repetitive reflecting and moving the whole part repetitively!

Would it be possible to work with multiple symmetry planes at the same time? Let’s say a table with four legs… Two symmetry axis, one on X, one on Y

So far, when reflecting geometry, only the sub geometry on the side of the symmetry plane picked during the command can be moved / edited. I don’t always remember which side I picked and end up selecting something I can’t even move. I think it is slightly restricting and would be beneficial if both sides can be edited. Also similar to T-Splines, it would be helpful to see the symmetry plane on the object. In Rhino, there’s not always an edge on this symmetry plane…


This is why we can’t have nice things. We always want more. And I agree with this request.

In fact I want to take it further: It would be very nice and loving if we can exclude certain points only (saved selection?) from symmetry.

Use case example: a car dashboard that is symmetrical everywhere except where it blends to the instrument panel and steering wheel.

If you all agree with this feature addition please like this post. 20 likes gets it automatically into production. (I don’t make the rules, just stating them).



yes, I also want partial symmetry!


and I’m for!
yet the edges on the axis of symmetry must be partially frozen. Prohibit moving left and right. Allow along axis only.

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And if you believe that, I know a very generous Nigerian prince that wants to make you rich.

Says the man that also said:

I don’t know Brian… We all know that it’s just a matter or time until you just can’t help yourself and get it done :rofl:

Part of my job is to lower expectations. How am I doing?


I am appropriately ‘whelmed;’ which is to say neither overwhelmed or underwhelmed. A little dizzy, too, but that’s probably from the beer.

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