Desperate plea yet again for selected object sees its layer highlighted

I, also, see room for improvement with Layers and the interface cues given to a user. A number of current methods seem a bit clumsy and dated. Sure, meticulous organization is a great goal (as is seven helpings of fruits and veggies per day!) but the heat of battle is not always pretty and there sometimes is some collateral damage despite best intentions. :slight_smile:

Hereā€™s a partial list of items that might benefit from some massaging (admittedly, some of these may be MacRhino only since thatā€™s where Iā€™m spending the majority of my time these days):

  1. What Layer? - Mods: Agreed on the benefit to more easily see what layer something is on when selected. Lots of ideas listed here, but I do like @rhinouserx mockup. Taking this one step further, clicking on the displayed layer name could either take you to that layer or activate it, as desired.

  2. What Layer? - Popup: Another (less useful but possibly easier to implement?) alternative to Item 1, is that if one selects an item and hovers on it, a delayed tag could display the layer name (and total layer string, if nested). Could even select an item then immediately force the delayed tag to show up by holding down Option, or something, rather than waiting. Maybe even permit right-clicking to make this layer active? (Which might be possible to do now by customizing?)

  3. Highlighting: The current Layer name highlight methods (bright and dim) is confusing. New users inevitably (and understandably) think the bright highlight means the layer is Active since most other programs use a similar methodā€”but this is not the case. Then there is the dim highlight. Why does the last layer that one has clicked on in the list remain with a dim highlight while modeling? It may not be Active, or even be displayed, yet the user is ā€œtoldā€ that this layer means something; thus, this seems to be useless information at best. Is there some functionality for the dim highlight that Iā€™m missing?

  4. Hidden ObjectsWould very much like to know if objects are Hidden on any given layer when looking at the layer list. Adding a clickable option in the Layer list to Show hidden objects on a layer and/or Show all Hidden objects (on all layers) would be great. Itā€™s super easy to hide something while working, then move onto another layer without then Showing them, then forgetting. This can trip up any user working with lots of content and layers, but when sharing files with others this can beā€¦ well, bad.

  5. Copy/Paste: Copy/Paste is a bit odd in that one canā€™t paste into a layer that is selected (meaning highlighted, but not active). Rather, pasting goes into the Active layer. This can confound people used to other a number of other programs. Alternatively (or in addition to) Adobeā€™s system (which they may have patented?) is simple in that one can drag a little dot to the desire layer to move the selected contents. Option key duplicates the content and puts it in another layer. Nice.

  6. ** BIGGEST WISH:** The ability to have layer sets: I canā€™t recall if this is possible in WinRhino (and canā€™t check right now since my Windows partition recently decided to go on vacation) but Iā€™m constantly hunting down (usually the same) layers to turn them on and off while working. Nesting layers helps a little, but then one is always clicking lightbulbs on and off. It would be really, really nice to have layer sets populated with desired layers displayed as one wants. This would be no different than Named Views and Named Cplanesā€”in a perfect worlds, a variety of predetermined layers and their state could be chosen at the click of a button. VERY useful while working, but INDISPENSABLE for presentations! Yes, Named Layers sounds a bit odd, thus, this convention might be a little better using the word ā€œSavedā€ instead of ā€œNamedā€?. (e.g. Saved Views, Saved CPlanes, Saved Layers).

Am enjoying all the ideas on this from others and thanks to RMA for being interested in this topic (and improvements in general)!

~Dave

I completely agree. @DigiFabLab I think those are all good practical suggestions. [quote=ā€œDigiFabLab, post:21, topic:8249ā€]
Sure, meticulous organization is a great goal.
[/quote]
I like to think I am meticulously organized and I find Rhino unnecessarily laborious in this regard. A little caveat here, Iā€™ve only been using Rhino since the new year. When one transitions to new software, one should attempt to learn the new softwareā€™s native workflow. Iā€™m doing my best and I have some way to go. Thankfully we have these forums and Google to help us.

Nevertheless for me, the key feature Rhino has yet to implement is a unified interface to select and organize objects by name from a text list. Iā€™ve seen a other posts about it. Depending upon the profession/ segment and the way one uses Rhino, this may or may not be an issue for individual users. But for me it is. The method for picking objects in Rhino can be slow. Iā€™m not quite at BrianMā€™s number of layers and objects but my current project is at about 250 layers and 1200 objects. Iā€™ve looked around in the forums and I have not found a way to speed up my workflow better than selecting objects from list. As an analogy, using just layers without being able to see and select the names of the objects within the layer is bit like using Windows Explorer but only having the navigation pain without being able to see the files in the folder.

Having an Object Lister (Alias)/ Outliner (Maya)/ Explorer (XSI)/ Scene Explorer type of functionality would be a huge time saver for the work Iā€™m doing. Iā€™m hijacking the thread a bit here, but perhaps the addition of even a basic Outliner type of functionality would make some of the other issues in the thread moot and provide benefit for many users.
-=AndrƩ

PS, Just to keep you from having to pop up a new window (from the linked post above):

Hi Dave -
LayerStateManager may get you what you want here.

-Pascal

Earlier in the beta cycle I suggested that layer management and the layer state be combined in one panel along with the properties of selected objects instead of two panels or three panels.
However Layers are an archaic form of management left over from ye olde Cad days.
They do have their use but I donā€™t see how highlighting layers when an object is selected is going to solve the dilemma maybe it does for Steve1?.

Instead I would welcome a better and faster and more complete properties or scene manager where many more object properties and selection options are exposed both for selection and for editing. For example Box edit is another panel why is that not included within object properties and why are the details of an object/s another click and why all the verbose information in details when that could be left to the What command.

I lobbied for combing many more of the panels that are similar in one place so that we could more easily do and manage things.

Selecting objects needs to be worked on and Steve1 and others bring up many good points but highlighting a layer for me or worse many layers just seems confusing especially since there are also layout space layers wow what a complex state of affairs.

I would prefer better reporting at the command line. It sucks that properties panel is so slow and uses so much resource and doesnā€™t even show the details of an object thatā€™s an extra click. One example if you select a group it doesnā€™t even report at the command line you selected a group instead it gives an object tally and it does suck you donā€™t know which layers they are on, the varies thing is just a joke and annoys me every time I see that. But I donā€™t see how having all those layers selected is going to help it because in a groups example your still going to have to wonder which layer is that line on.

My ultimate wish is for a Rhino spreadsheet environment where I can combine and do all of the above and combine it all with formulas and other things like Block management, boms and object selecting and properties. This could be docked full size on another screen and would be an interface to everything Rhino like layout space is for drawings.

RM

3 Likes

Hi Roland,

These are all good points and indeed itā€™s inevitable that the structure and setup of ā€œsceneā€ management will need to be overhauled at some time in the future.

I just hope that at McNeel there is a thinking that allows for these type of drastic changes in paradigms. If not; it will mean their product will slowly become more and more archaic, and getting surpassed by newcomers.

The patching up can only go so far.

-Willem

2 Likes

Thanks, Pascalā€¦. LayerStateManager is not yet implemented in MacRhino. Look forward to trying this out either in a future MacRhino release (or once I get my Windows side back up and running).

~Dave

@dale - any thoughts or comments on this one??

thanks,

-Pascal

Donā€™t forget this thread:

At that time I wasnā€™t fond of the idea of using tags but perhaps times are changingā€¦

One could think that, in addition to the user assigning one or many tags, Rhino also assigned tags automatically for object type (line, curve, surface, polysrf, solid).

The Tag Manager window could have 3 fields (rows): the current tag that is assigned to new objects, all tags that are assigned to the currently selected objects, and tags available for use.

@4dsynergy Roland, even filtering through a spreadsheet environment is mentioned here :wink:

1 Like

BrianM, thanks indeed for the scripts, as you say they work a treat!!

Tim

I use that function a lot, let me explain how I use it, having just done so I recall you wondering ā€¦so here is an exampleā€¦

I am creating objects and having them go onto a layer I have as ticked, I then create a dimension which needs to be on a different layer, after messing about in Object Properties and finding out where it is in the palette, I select that layer and allocate the dimension to that layer, I carry on making objects and they still go to the layer I have ticked, I then create another dimension to assist me and again it must go to the same layer the last dimension went to, THAT LAYER IS STILL INDICATED TO ME, HAVING MANAGED TO FIND IT AMIDST MY HUNDREDS OF LAYERS, it makes that process of dims to one layer and objects to another easy, as the tick looks after itself, the dims go to that layer but I quickly re-allocate them to the highlighetd layerā€¦speed !!!

Steve

Thanks for this, Steve. Makes sense, but it seems like there may be better ways to achieve the same speed without this sort of visual confusion caused by the dim highlight.

One idea might be a ā€œMove to Recent Layer Selectedā€ kind of command. This kind of command (accessible by hotkey / Right-click) could give a short list of recent layers used, defaulting to the last. Could be slick!

Also, been thinking about the ā€œtagsā€ idea, and on the surface there are probably a number of benefits. One of which is that it would also work for your process.

Another possible improvement for visually navigating complex layer lists might be the ability to assign colored text or a colored highlight to the text of the layer name. Could match the layer color or be totally different. The layers could then optionally be sorted by things like ROYGBIV display (or other methods) or one could pick just one color to filter the layers viewed.

This way, common layers like dims, guides, curves, etc, could be easily identified with an assigned color for each type, but live on a number of different layers while still displaying in different colors in the drawing if desired. Consider this idea a sort of ā€œvisual taggingā€ method, I suppose.

~Dave

Hi Wim,
I remember that post. I donā€™t know about the tag thing yet I have to see it working or a better example. Filtering in a spread sheet doesnā€™t need to rely on tags if the objects themselves are spreadsheet aware. But tags could be good, Iā€™d have to try them to really see.
RM

Hi Willem,
Yes me too, I think McNeel can and will. I kind of think of GH as good start on what a spreadsheet type of environment for Rhino would be. Only because GH is a kind of spread sheet instead of cells you link components. I would like something similar to GH. Where all object properties of the file could be exposed and modified and interacted with. Add a physics engine and scan and solve you could do amazing things easily, When I say easily maybe a little more user friendly less geeky than GH something for the entire Rhino community not just specialists. For instance easy boms, sun studies, object modification, object selection and organization, etc. would be quick and easy.
RM

Yes please, these are features I used for years in [Maya][1] and I miss having the speed associated with selecting objects and making changes in addition to Layers.
-=AndrƩ
[1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEXMbrREw8s