Any vsr like / alias tools making it to rhino 6?

you indirectly addressing a problem which is one of the most fundamental differences between Rhino and Alias/Surf in my opinion.
There is a big difference in between Fitting algorithms due to different philosophies. While Rhino and other more technical CAD system focus more onto numerical exactness( meaning they are using multispan, high cpcount and weighted nurbs in order to fit a shape into or onto another as exact as possible), class A modelling software diverges from this in order to achieve better surface properties (single span, low cpcount and unweighted shapes). It doesn’t matter if its about Projection, Matching, Offsetting etc., but addressing these problems actually means to say, please change your core and how it works. I expect this not going to be happen to be honest. Not because they couldn’t do, but rather because the other way also offers a bunch of advantages. And I guess people like me, doing class A , are the minority after all. I talked about VSR with the devs, and they told me, if more people would have bought VSR, they didn’t have to sell it to Autodesk in order to actually earn from it. So my conclusion is, that there are simply to few people here needing this kind of functionality, as sad as it sounds

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Hi TomTom,

well, that’s too bad, really. I am sure if McNeel offered core Rhino and then sold advanced options packs that have (relative) minority appeal, there would be quite some wanting to purchase these, when SolidWorks, Alias or ICEM is just too costly.

As MisterB says, rendering in industrial and automotive design is easily and affordably done via Vray, Maxwell, Octane, etc. - concentrating on improving the Rhino renderer feels a wee bit like an exercise in futility.

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Yes these products are ways to expensive. I fully agree, but its not only because they can sell it for this price because of having rich clients or because of being part of a greedy concern, but also because they actually sell only few licenses.
I was actually shocked how few licenses of VSR were sold. Bytheway, in case you didn’t know. Some Ex-Lead-Icem-developers actually did VSR-Tools. They had 30 years of experience, and still VSR couldn’t fully match up with Icem Surf and Alias. These algorithms are extremely difficult in its detail, so that the amount and knowledge needed to create them shouldn’t be underestimated. That’s what I mean when I’m saying Rhino devs won’t rebuild their core algorithms. And this also explains why there are no other 3rd party plugins around.
The work involved is no relation to the money you can earn with it. And its not only about the functionality itself, but also about its robustness and its universal application. Don’t get me wrong. I hope Surface modelling in Rhino is getting improved, but I also see the dilemma.

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It is a shame that VSR couldn’t make the Rhino plug in business model work. In my opinion they had two related problems: they didn’t do a good job of explaining what it did and it was too expensive, costing more than the core software. As a relatively inexperienced user at the time, I didn’t understand the power of the toolset on offer so there was no way I could justify the comparatively high cost. Now I can see the value but it is too late.

I like Lagom’s suggestion of McNeel developed advanced option packs. Whether the numbers add up is another issue though.

Sure, but you can do the math by yourself. 5 highly skilled engineers/mathematicians working 3 years to sell a product for a battalion sized unit of cad experts. Germany is world leader in taxing literature, so you can guess what entrepreneurs have to pay to stay alive. You will notice that the outcome is low, and the only reason they could sell it to Autodesk, is because Autodesk don’t like having a much cheaper competitor. I also like to note that most European and American companies pay for their licenses, the rest of the world don’t bother to pirate. Maybe they buy one license in order to get the support, but that’s it…

[quote=“alexandre_galin, post:21, topic:45912”]
I was wondering if it s possible like in VSR to project a curve on a surface which is originally single span and the resultant on the surface is also single span ?
[/quote]Possible in both Rhino V5 and V6 (don’t know about earlier versions) using the native Rhino command Project. Use the Loose=Yes option and the number of control points in the resulting curve will be the same as (or fewer for some multi-span curves) than the number of control points in the original curve. The curve may not lie within the tolerance of the surface but that’s the tradeoff of not increasing the number of control points.

Rhino, SolidWorks, Alias, Creo… there is room in the commercial sphere for all tools, depending on company size, global region, client base, etc. I am near certain that I won’t see “the mother of CAD” in my lifetime ; )

Right now, I like Rhino predominantly whenever scripted, grasshoppered or kangarooed work is needed - the other softwares simply fall flat when it comes to algorithmic form-finding and associated tasks, also where external data drives some or all aspects of a design. With better matching and persistent analysis tools/display functions Rhino would make a huge step forward. Rendering, as many said before, is really the least of the worries.

I would very much like to see an uncut video from a good Rhino surface modeller to see how long it would take to achieve a very typical solution like the one below that occurs in many kinds of consumer products and investment goods. I would not attempt this in Rhino, but maybe I’m just too stupid, which is rather likely. Possibly, someone has a link to such a video, where also the accuracy is shown?

Anyway, let’s see what V6 will finally deliver. Everyone’s very much looking forward I’d think.

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Hi eddi,

ok, good links. The top example looks very similar, but seems rather cartesian, constructed, not with double curvature on each surface, which is the point of it all. The person who did the video does unfortunately
not show where curvature was achieved and shows no analytical or curvature shading WHILE WORKING ON THE SURFACES which is what this is all about. Seen in HD, the quality of the surfaces looks quite poor. I’ll look at the two Russian examples as soon as possible…

Thanks!

The usual Mechanical design method is a fillet that wraps around and comes to a point. It can be either fillet that wraps around the other. In Rhino, that only takes a few seconds.

I generally like to avoid singularities whenever possible. It takes a minute or two linger longer but blendSrf usually works pretty well to make a nice initial surface and then use MatchSrf to finish it off.
In the enclosed file I added a couple knots rather than letting the “refine”
option in MatchSrf add way too many knots.
BlendSrf.3dm (104.3 KB)

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Last night I started typing a reply very much along the lines of Tom Tom’s responses (though in much less detail) but I cancelled posting it for reasons best known to myself. I too was very surprised by the small number of licenses of VSR for Rhino that were sold. Perhaps the vociferous replies of an informed few on this forum lead many to assume that it’s a product in demand with the masses. I sense that’s not the case. That, in combination with the need for (expensive and hard-to-find) staff with the relevant skills to code such tools, make it unlikely such a product will ever prove highly profitable.

What does strike me in reading the comments made here by users with far greater skills in this area than I possess, is that the need for improvement in Rhino’s toolset is not so much with the manipulation tools themselves (of which there are quite a few) but more the way in which visual feedback to the edits is provided. In spite of the wish to have ‘magic bullet’ tools inbuilt which can read the mind of the modeller and provide the desired solution at the touch of a single button, most of the time complex surface creation is very much a manual process, more akin to the skills of a wood carver than a cnc operator.

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That’s a cogent way of framing the issue.

… at least when you don’t have those magic bullet tools that could do the tricky parts for you. :sunglasses:

Sales is also about prizing. I for one would have bought it (while it was available) if I would have afforded it. The few number of products sold for such a specialized task is no surprise at all. Very few would buy it for use with the Autodesk products either, but now when it’s integrated in their applications it adds value to the host application. No surprise at all.

If you want to sell, find the price where it sells.

// Rolf

Hi RIL,

in over 25 years of CAD use, I have yet to see those magic bullet tools (if the client is a top brand that wants high quality design), whether in SolidWorks, Creo, Alias or whatever. But I’m not quite dead yet so I’m still excited and hopeful ; )

It’s also about attitude. When drawing boxes, don’t get stuck inside the boxes. Its about getting away from being too “Lagom” *. :slight_smile:

BTW, your avatar is awesome. :sunglasses:

// Rolf

  • There’s no exact English translation for that Swedish word, but think of “average”, or “not too extreme” in any way.

moderate? although google tells me something like occasionally, but aren´t we all exactly that? we sleep we are awake :smiley: nobody runs forever

Hej RIL,

lagom is a state of mind, a philosophy, a way of being : )

Hej @Lagom,

Yes, in Sweden it’s important to be Lagom. But I’m not so picky about being lagom. Be what you need to be in each situation. :slight_smile:

I think the word originally stems from two words; team (lag) and about or around (om-kring). So when you receive something as an individual you share it with the team around you, share it “team-around” ( = Lag-om).

Over time it has come to mean something “inbetween”, not too much, not too little. Spread it out a bit. In short: Don’t be too extreme. Sometimes it means, do not rock the boat.

But if getting stuck, I’m not against making waves if that’s what’s needed to get the tanker off the reef. :wink:

// Rolf

The only way to loosen your boat is to be patient, await the high tide, and not get too agitated. Once the tide arrived - then you act hard, quick, together in unison. This is a small part of what lagom is all about. I am speaking from experience ; )

plenty of wisdom here :wink: i wonder if a ToggleTide command for the urgent
could still make its way into rhino 6.

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