Some Thoughts On Surface Modeling, vis a vis the 3rd Party Plugin Model

Rhino Rhino for Windows
41

It’s Rhino 6 expired evaluation. Here is the system information:

Rhino 6 SR25 2020-4-23 (Rhino 6, 6.25.20114.05271, Git hash:master @ f35d7ded15ec317635ced435d8df84327397038d)
License type: Evaluation, build 2020-04-23
License details: Stand-Alone
Expires on: 2020-05-28

Windows 10.0 SR0.0 or greater (Physical RAM: 7.8Gb)
Machine name: DESKTOP-MIS7AN1

Hybrid graphics system.
Primary display: Intel(R) UHD Graphics 630 (Intel) Memory: 1GB, Driver date: 3-9-2020 (M-D-Y).
Primary OpenGL: NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1050 (NVidia) Memory: 4GB, Driver date: 3-17-2020 (M-D-Y). OpenGL Ver: 4.6.0 NVIDIA 445.75

OpenGL Settings
Safe mode: Off
Use accelerated hardware modes: On
Redraw scene when viewports are exposed: On

Anti-alias mode: 4x
Mip Map Filtering: Linear
Anisotropic Filtering Mode: Height

Vendor Name: NVIDIA Corporation
Render version: 4.6
Shading Language: 4.60 NVIDIA
Driver Date: 3-17-2020
Driver Version: 26.21.14.4575
Maximum Texture size: 32768 x 32768
Z-Buffer depth: 24 bits
Maximum Viewport size: 32768 x 32768
Total Video Memory: 4 GB

Rhino plugins
C:\Program Files\Rhino 6\Plug-ins\Commands.rhp “Commands” 6.25.20114.5271
C:\Program Files\Rhino 6\Plug-ins\rdk.rhp “Renderer Development Kit”
C:\Program Files\Rhino 6\Plug-ins\RhinoRender.rhp “Rhino Render”
C:\Program Files\Rhino 6\Plug-ins\rdk_etoui.rhp “RDK_EtoUI” 6.25.20114.5271
C:\Program Files\Rhino 6\Plug-ins\rdk_ui.rhp “Renderer Development Kit UI”
C:\Program Files\Rhino 6\Plug-ins\NamedSnapshots.rhp “Snapshots”
C:\Program Files\Rhino 6\Plug-ins\RhinoCycles.rhp “RhinoCycles” 6.25.20114.5271
C:\Program Files\Rhino 6\Plug-ins\Toolbars\Toolbars.rhp “Toolbars” 6.25.20114.5271
C:\Program Files\Rhino 6\Plug-ins\Displacement.rhp “Displacement”

I also noticed something weird. When I enter a distance for the length of the extrusion (the example below used 15 degrees angle), lets say 30 mm, the preview shows 31 mm in one directions, and 29 mm if I flip the directions. No matter what’s the number, it’s always +1 or +1 depending on the direction. :smiley: The mouse tooltip itself shows 30 mm in both scenarios. Is that a bug or something wrong on my Rhino? The command ends and won’t build an extrusion as I get the error. However, if I extrude from a curve in the same position as the surface edge, it works.

I just updated my Windows and will download the latest drivers for everything, but I doubt that that’s the case. I have an old 3D connexion driver for SpacePilot discontinued device that does not work with newer Rhino 6. I will also uninstall it to check if it helps.

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311333×750 85.9 KB

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42

hey,
did you count how many of you are claiming for better srf tools?
the usual 4!
I’m sorry but Rhino is an Architectural sw.
there’s more request about Mac/layout/2D improvements than your surfacing tools.
this is really disappointing but is the truth.

I’m on your side, I wish to have a simpler, faster, better way to make clean srfs.

Subd? another architectural tool.

Product design doesn’t belong in the high part of the ranking for McNeel.

my personal point of view

1 Like
43

Well as always, there are multiple ways to look at things.

For years it was the same people asking for a TSplines replacement over and over, which we are getting with the excellent development of SubD in the WIP. And I don’t agree that SubD is only an architectural tool.

I used TSplines to model anatomical features that would be very difficult to model in NURBS for a company that made testing manikins.

While I don’t know if we will get better surfacing tools, I do know that I will not stop asking.

Head_Nurbs
Head_Nurbs710×773 32.7 KB

1 Like
44

Don’t think so. While it might be used for some free-form projects à la Zaha Hadid, it is certainly not the norm… If I read this forum correctly, most of the people who have been clamoring for SubD tools are in fact industrial designers (if you include things like jewelry design, footwear etc. as part of ID). Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong here though.

7 Likes
45

This bundling of fields feels uncomfortable.
While commercial jewellery can be viewed perhaps as part of industrial design. Most jewellery designer working with Rhino are very far from ID, and use Rhino quite differently.

Akash

46

Just few cents from me, I still hope for rhino to have the full set polygon OpensubD tools in the future so that I have less hassle juggling between Max and rhino. :smiley:

I like the current SubD development right now, but having another one that follows the normal polygon OpensubD would be a nice thing :smiley:

but I understand there is no such things as “1 software to rule them all”. so using what rhino has offered so far is already a blessing.

47

Yes but we can perhaps agree that jewelry design is still much closer to the scale of most ID projects than a building is, and that jewelry is (in general) still a ‘consumer product’. Also with regards to surfaces and forms, jewelry also a lot closer to many product design forms than a wood frame house or a steel skyscraper is.

48

SubD is a convenient and wick way to create furniture, too (including car seats). Not to mention that it could vastly improve the prototype portion of a project, because it allows for easy modification of the conceptual shape (like what Alias car designers often do) before proceeding with creating the final model with the usual NURBS tools.

49

Having each discipline in a nice, easily describable silo is quite the traditionalist view…

I know formally trained industrial designers who are footwear designers, work on vintage aircraft and others that have moved into the field of bespoke jewellery. Likewise, I also know architects who are now in the movie/CGI area. My point is software should not be viewed in such a narrow fashion. Sure, it may have originally been intended for a particular industry but things change over time. If Rhino had better surfacing tools that allowed users to manipulate surfaces in better/easier ways, I’m sure everyone would benefit.

4 Likes
50

My understanding is widespread use of Rhino by architects is relatively recent. I recently read on this forum that many of the early users were naval architects / boat designers, and Rhino is still widely used in the design of boats.

1 Like
51

Alright, off my Saturday beer buzz, and asking myself – how do I add to this important conversation without writing another similar dissertation???

I’d say this then: In a perfect world, I agree with and promote most of the salient points expressed already, and even a couple of the contradictory ones. The specifics likely matter not at this stage. Give me modeling tools or give me death!

Huh? Look…

Rhino started as: Modeling tools for Designers

Designers

But wait, it evolved (as it should)…

Model

OK…more…you dig! (yes) AND the first two tags remain - DESIGN, MODEL. Cool! (…and it doesn’t even say Generate(ive)???)

But without design and model, what have you got? Squat! - Jack S@#$! - Nada! (insert app/company you think sucks here)

So it’s really simple, right? Just buy-out XNurbs guy, MOI guy, and reverse VSR - awesome/done! (sarcasm) HA!

Had hoped v7 would be the ‘modeling update’…and… well, IT IS (SubD - the Rhino way) plus some other ‘stuff,’ plus a unified cross-platform code base - necessary evil IMO (I digress - Mac haters twitch here) AND some rendering…some day, maybe, for me. Progress! Little company / big progress

SOOOO, v8… what’s left but the BIG NURBS modeling update, right…cool…everyone (all 37 of us :wink:???) sing kumbaya!

Hey, Rhino is first and foremost a design/model tool, right? ID is first and foremost about designing and modeling… duh? (I don’t care about other verticals, sorry, but it is fine if you do.) No brainer! Get 'er done. And if straight-up buying/reversing is a pipe-dream, then all-hands-on-deck, please, for a best effort focused on what - all those guys up the thread there - say/said. (plus the in-house ‘designers’ on the dev team)

After all, what if Daddy Warbucks gets his $!@# together one day and decides to play the Big Bad Wolf (because some CEO wants a few more points of share for his options) and sticks VSR into FU-360, plus a few Alias tidbits to seal the deal, seeking to stick-a-fork in that pesky Rhinocerotidae. (I know - you “from my cold dead hand” guys, your knuckles are turning white, I get it.).

Would Warbucks actually try??? Perhaps he gets around to it, but get a load of this:

Nine votes…9 sinkin’ votes. Not 69 or 99 or 399…NINE. HA! (ut-oh, some clerk tagged it - ‘future consideration’… :grinning:)

Seemingly, their user base doesn’t give a rat’s arse - VS-what? Here is what they (seem to) care about based on vote count - hint, dark mode is way up there.

Here is my simplistic pitch: v8 - the counterintuitive, counterculture, back to basics, uber NURBS (and more SubD) MODELING UPDATE. Designers and modelers of the world take notice and rejoice!!! (however many there are)

We can have a dream.

4 Likes
52

The problem is not the technology, its the loss of them. Maybe the conditions are just really bad?!

You could also push quality 3rd party development, if there would be a marketplace for tools. I for myself started to implement bezier surface tools years ago. I quit very early. Its just unrealistic to create software in in freetime, and fulltime has little perspective.

The effort in making even a small revenue is minimum of equal size as developing the tool . Especially if you see that all the awesome plugins had economical problems. If you guys complain about having done bad marketing, then I would ask what would you have done better? This could be a full time job alone, and of course software devs are usually not the right guys for this… You cannot compare to Autodesk or other bigger companies, because they have teams only doing this kind of work.

Until this does not improve, the problems will remain…

53

With regards to the marketing, for example the one for the VSR plug-in. They would be much more successful with 20 more videos that show various cases where the capabilities of its tools shine. If you check their YouTube channel, they have a very limited amount of videos that showcase just a portion of their tools. YouTube is a huge (and free!) platform for advertising and I’m surprised that they didn’t took the opportunity to make people aware of why they should consider buying the VSR plug-in.

Another major reason for the lack of orders was the initial price at which the VSR plug-in was sold. In EU it cost 1 400 Euros plus VAT (usually 20-26% depending on the country). That price made it too expensive for most Rhino users. In the USA it was $1 325, which is lower, but still more than the price of Rhino itself. It was not before them being acquired by “Autodesk” before the price dropped to 392 Euros + 20-26% VAT in EU or $371 in USA.

The VSR plug-in would be much more popular at a price of 300 Euros, and with at least 20 more deep-dive videos on YouTube. Once they had their plug-in spread across many customers, the most natural business strategy would be to offer series of annual upgrades with expanded functionality at an affordable price, such like 100 Euros or so. I know that software development is not easy, nor its fast, but as some smart people say, sometimes less is more. Offering a product of any kind with proper balance between market price and value is a vital decision in every industry.

54

just on a side note, no not that free, it takes time to watch videos, and when time gets additionally compromised by a gazillion of adds all few minutes, time runs out even faster. but to be fair i think a user can actually set if youtube is allowed to show adds, so yes in that case its ok.

55

I haven’t seen any advertising on YouTube for years, because I use the “Enhancer for YouTube” add-on for Mozilla Firefox. :smiley: Along with that, I don’t see 99% of the ads on the other websites, because I also use the “uBlock Origin” add-on. :innocent: Internet is soooo much easier and beautiful without disturbing ads. Also, the browser works faster this way and consumes less RAM and CPU power.

As for the YouTube itself, every owner of a YT channel has the option to turn off monetization and ads for the videos he or she uploads (sometimes, Google may decide to put ads on its own).

I think that everyone who is interested in seeing the capabilities of such a valuable plug-in like VSR could wait a minute for the advertising to expire.

2 Likes
56

If you need half the time to release a plugin, the price will be lower. And if you create tools like VSR, you need more than a Youtube series. Bytheway, they had showcase videos. But my experience had been, that many unexperienced modeller, did not even understand the point for choosing Bezier. So if you want to do marketing right, you need to create a lot more descriptive content.

3 Likes
57

NO i cant :smiley:

yes i also have ublock, does a wors job than wipr which worked splendid till they started charging for it. still have nothing for my ipad those adds drive me nuts and biscuits.

one thing skimming through and sorry if missed it in case somebody already talked about it, patch is actually not so bad. it has continuity and other issues but if that would be enhanced it could become a really great tool. after all Xnurbs is nothing more than trimmed surface either if am not mistaken. i would certainly love a native tool like that in rhino.

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If one refuses to spend a minute to watch the capabilities of a plug-in like VSR (and eventually buy it after seeing its advanced and time-saving feature), and completely ignores it instead, then maybe he or she prefers to spend extra minutes or even hours every day for tedious NURBS modeling without VSR. It’s all about the personal choice. :smiley:

1 Like
59

Its chicken vs egg. Imagine being a modeller not knowing class A, no Alias, no Icem. You would need to explain a lot more to show the benefit of such tools. You can see this in so many Grasshoppper threads in this forum. When user don’t know how to surface model… just saying. Anyway I get your point, and things could have been made much better. But someone should also see the side of the developer and how hard it is to actually create a commercial software. Many logical decisions are simply not logic if you are on the other side of the table.

4 Likes
60

wow, ok that was completely besides my point. nevermind :wink:
Make Rhino’s patch great again.