How does one move the cursor perpendicular to the c plane?

[davidcockey]

Description of Construction planes and coordinates in this document: http://docs.mcneel.com/rhino/mac/usersguide/en-us/html/ch-05_accuratemodeling.htm

[rhinorudi]

Hi @davidcockey,

thanks for the links, my one week course was level 1, but I don’t remember touching c-plans yet.

I did find this on the Wiki, Mitch wrote some of it and it explains it very well.

I would like to have time to just play with making and creating c-planes.

Cheers, Randy

[Helvetosaur]

I have a couple of videos of some past student demo/exercises, but they’re all in French… --Mitch

[DigiFabLab]

@wim

I’m afraid that it is really, really crucial for any user to get a firm grip of what the CPlane does in Rhino. There is no point continuing working in it when that is not understood. (That said, I’m not sure how to ensure that new users learn this…)

So (painfully) true, on all accounts—especially the last sentence.

I’m glad to hear Rhinorudi—one of our more active and knowledgeable users—confess to a lack of clarity on the topic of CPlanes. Once one understands CPlanes, it’s hard to imagine modeling without them. Conversely, until one understands CPlanes thoroughly, they are a kind of voodoo—so most people DON’T MESS WITH THEM! (largely because getting things back to “normal” seems a complete mystery—especially since UNDO does not undo a CPlane change).

As I’ve witnessed time and time again, and like Rudi’s experience, it’s entirely possible to model for years (forever?) without ever adjusting a CPlane.

It would be interesting to know how many users actually adjust CPlanes and how often they do this. My guess is that it’s a whole lot less than imagined. Despite this, the default presentation of CPlanes to users is quite prominent and (if a new user, they more than likely don’t understand them) often causes significant disorientation (with Z appearing green, etc)

Even understanding CPlanes (and it took me a while), I still can’t get 100% of a handle on them in MacRhino. Either something isn’t working totally right, or I’m still missing something. When I use Universal CPlanes (which I really think should be the default selection so that users can at least start to get a handle on the entire concept), I would expect the Orthogonal views to adjust properly to so that Front and Side would display geometry relative to the new Cplane. However (and I’m basing this on recollections), the Orthogonal views rarely seems to work as expected.

I’ve tried a number of times to figure out what’s going on, but in the end, kind of gave up either diagnosing whether there is a problem in MacRhino, or with something I’m doing.

~Dave

[rhinorudi]

je parle Français quelle que fois, I think,

[Helvetosaur]

@DigiFabLab

As I’ve witnessed time and time again, and like Rudi’s experience, it’s entirely possible to model for years (forever?) without ever adjusting a CPlane.

That’s actually a good thing, no? If you manage to get your job done without noticing them, then they must be pretty well designed…

@DigiFabLab

When I use Universal CPlanes (which I really think should be the default selection so that users can at least start to get a handle on the entire concept),

I have the opposite view (what did you expect?) I think that UPlanes confuse the HECK out of most people - especially beginners. To have views and CPlanes switching around on you in a viewport where you didn’t make a change is pretty disconcerting if you don’t understand the concept.

I only ever change the CPlane in the Perspective viewport, and for me, if I have UPlanes active, the orthogonal viewports do update correctly - but I just don’t find the functionality all that useful, as I can do anything I want in 2D on the CPlane I set in Perspective anyway. All I ever do in the orthogonal viewports in that case is LOOK at stuff from that point of view to see if it looks right.

–Mitch

[maxz]

@DigiFabLab

largely because getting things back to “normal” seems a complete mystery—especially since UNDO does not undo a CPlane change).

There is a whole array of commands that allow you to reposition your CPlane to WorldTop, WorldFront, WorldRight or WorldLeft, which covers the “normal” for all default viewports. And there is a Previous CPlane command that you can use to undo an unwanted change.

Max.

[Helvetosaur]

@maxz

There is a whole array of commands that allow you to reposition your CPlane to WorldTop, WorldFront, WorldRight or WorldLeft, which covers the “normal” for all default viewports. And there is a Previous CPlane command that you can use to undo an unwanted change.

Plus what Mac Rhino users do not yet have… the 4View command. Run it twice in succession and it resets ALL viewports to default. VERY handy. --Mitch

[DigiFabLab]

@maxz

There is a whole array of commands that allow you to reposition your CPlane to WorldTop, WorldFront, WorldRight or WorldLeft, which covers the “normal” for all default viewports. And there is a Previous CPlane command that you can use to undo an unwanted change.

Indeed… but, if you’ve ever watched a new user experimentally change a CPlane the first time, it can be pretty fascinating. Panic is the best word to describe it, since they’re pretty sure they just “broke” Rhino and lost their model. I’ve even watched a number of students open a new file, then copy and paste their entire model into it just to “restore” their CPlanes!

~Dave

[maxz]

Doet de leerling het verkeerd, is het hem verkeerd geleerd

[DigiFabLab]

@Helvetosaur

That’s actually a good thing, no? If you manage to get your job done without noticing them, then they must be pretty well designed…

Heh heh… If “without noticing them” is the same as “trying not to get disoriented”, then you’re right!

@Helvetosaur

I have the opposite view (what did you expect?)

I count on you for this, Mitch!

(This is all the more entertaining given our shared love for digital making, furry critters that purr, and, yes… even high-performance, two-wheeled conveyances. Oh, and my wife spent a year abroad at your school [and loved it].)

@Helvetosaur

if I have UPlanes active, the orthogonal viewports do update correctly

Glad to hear this. Hmmm… I’m going to have to spend some time playing with this in both MacRhino and WinRhino to see if the behavior is the same. It’s entirely possible that I’m flubbing something.

As for the utility of Universal CPlanes, to me, this behavior (if I can get it to work as you do in MacRhino) is not much different than the default behavior one sees in the various four views which use World axes. The only difference being that the orthogonal views would now be presented based on one’s new CPlane. I find this really handy when dealing with orthogonal parts that are skewed from the World axes.

I look forward to 4View in MacRhino. Sounds potentially helpful. Will have to try this in WinRhino.

~Dave

[DigiFabLab]

@maxz

Doet de leerling het verkeerd, is het hem verkeerd geleerd

Ha ha… Note, that I didn’t use the word “my” before the word “students” in that example…

[DigiFabLab]

@DigiFabLab

if I have UPlanes active, the orthogonal viewports do update correctly

I just tested Orthogonal views when using Universal CPlanes and, at first glance it seems fine; however, I think there’s something definitely wrong (at least in MacRhino. Did not test WinRhino).

First, I tested what Mitch suggested and got the same result: the orthogonal viewports did update correctly to match a new CPlane. But only initially. Trying to pick other desired views does not always work. Bug?

Sorry this is kind of long, but I tried to be precise. Efforts to confirm these observations are welcomed.

Here are the steps (with the enclosed file of a “toy top” which I use to explain CPlanes to my students):

• Verify that Universal Construction Planes are on.
  (Rhinoceros > Preferences > Modeling Aids > Construction Planes > Universal Construction Planes)

• File should open in 4 square view, with CPlane as WorldTop.

• Step One: Type “CPlane” > Surface, and set to the top surface in Perspective view. Same orientation as World.
  Top = OK
  Front = OK
  Right = OK

• Step Two: For each Ortho view: Right Click the Name of View > Set View, then select proper one.
  Top = OK
  Front = OK
  Right = OK
  Worth noting is that with this method, clicking the View name does not retain the CPlane views, but restores World views (which in this case are the same). Unless one “knows” this, it can be misleading if you have Universal CPlanes on and expect otherwise. If you make a new CPlane on another face, you’ll see what I mean.

Up until this point, both methods give expected results. (See below)

• Step Three: Here’s the problem. For each respective Ortho view: type “SetView” > C Plane, then select the desired view.
  Top = OK
  Front = WRONG. Bottom view is displayed
  Right = WRONG. Back view is displayed

If I’m understanding things correctly, I should get the same results as above; however, I’m getting incorrect views in the bottom two windows (See below)

I didn’t test all views using the SetView command-line method, but believe other incorrect views may also result. If I simply am misunderstanding how this should work, an explanation of what should be done is most welcomed.

On a related note, optimally, it would be great if the orthogonal view names could somehow differentiate between when they are displaying World and CPlane views (maybe a symbol or colored border or something?). But, unfortunately, they don’t, as Step Two illustrates.

~Dave
Tutorial_01_Rhino_Interface_Toy_Top.3dm (880.8 KB)

[rhinorudi]

@DigiFabLab

I’m glad to hear Rhinorudi—one of our more active and knowledgeable users—confess to a lack of clarity on the topic of CPlanes. Once one understands CPlanes, it’s hard to imagine modeling without them.

I do have some drafting experience from my grade 8 shop class and then spending summers designing houses when I was 11-13 (for myself at my Grand parent’s cottage). I still have my T-square and scale ruler, I can draw in 4-views, so maybe when I discovered Rhino the layout was familiar to me.

@DigiFabLab

Conversely, until one understands CPlanes thoroughly, they are a kind of voodoo—so most people DON’T MESS WITH THEM! (largely because getting things back to “normal” seems a complete mystery—especially since UNDO does not undo a CPlane change).

My experience exactly. I know I have to learn that whole area of Rhino, but like most things, it is not that necessary for me getting my job done and when I have free time to play, right now it is coding & grasshopper.

I think resetting C-planes should be simple and if it was, then messing around with them would be less frightening. And conversely, knowing all about them should make messing around with them not scary.

I think the knowledge of where you are in space while you are modelling is more important, than whether the z-axis indicator is blue or green. i never actually look at those much, as long as I know where 0 is then all is good.

I think I am spending this weekend, speeded up on coffee and halloween treats to look into all of this and the commands here …

and here …

«Randy

[Helvetosaur]

@DigiFabLab

Step Two: For each Ortho view: Right Click the Name of View > Set View, then select proper one. Top = OK Front = OK Right = OK Worth noting is that with this method, clicking the View name does not retain the CPlane views, but restores World views (which in this case are the same). Unless one “knows” this, it can be misleading if you have Universal CPlanes on and expect otherwise. If you make a new CPlane on another face, you’ll see what I mean.

This is what I avoid doing at all costs… I assume that once I am in Universal mode, that Rhino takes care of all the subordinate view generation. All I would ever do is set CPlanes in Perspective, never views elsewhere. If you start messing with that system by going back into other viewports and setting other views, as far as I see it, all bets are off, I no longer trust the system. I’m not saying it shouldn’t work in principle, I’m saying I just don’t trust it to work. Probably why I never use it.

–Mitch

[Helvetosaur]

@rhinorudi

I think resetting C-planes should be simple and if it was, then messing around with them would be less frightening. And conversely, knowing all about them should make messing around with them not scary.

I think it’s not all that complicated. I have a couple of simple rules that make it hard to mess up:

1. NEVER change the CPlane in any of the standard ortho views like Top, Front, Right. To do so is just asking for major trouble.

2. Always follow rule #1.

Seriously, if you only ever change the CPlane in the Perspective window, you can always get back to default by resetting that view to Top CPlane. And as always, in Windows Rhino there is the 4View crutch. You can also create new floating viewports in addition to the 4 standard ones, I always do this when I need a “special” view/CPlane combo.

Yes, Rhino does not make it all that easy for you because it doesn’t tell you that the current CPlane is no longer the default CPlane in a particular viewport. So you do need to have your wits about you. I often get student files that act funny when I work on them until I realize that what I thought was the default Top CPlane in Perspective was in fact not the case.

–Mitch

[rhinorudi]

@Helvetosaur

Always follow rule #1.

I can relate to that,

@Helvetosaur

NEVER change the CPlane in any of the standard ortho views like Top, Front, Right. To do so is just asking for major trouble.

that defiantly makes sense.

@Helvetosaur

if you only ever change the CPlane in the Perspective window, you can always get back to default by resetting that view to Top CPlane.

Actually I do know this one.

@Helvetosaur

Rhino does not make it all that easy for you because it doesn’t tell you that the current CPlane is no longer the default CPlane in a particular viewport.

Maybe a notice in the viewport window telling you that you have changed the C-plane and then a reset option, like a lot of other situations in Rhino … “reset to default” ?

[pascal (Pascal Golay)]

@DigiFabLab

For each respective Ortho view: type “SetView” > C Plane, then select

I am not sure I follow 100% yet, but UPlanes are set via the Cplane command, not SetView. Set say the perspective view’s CPlane to some other plane than current, and the other three viewports should update as if that (let’s say World Front) CPlane were the new ‘Top’

-Pascal

[DigiFabLab]

Got that part.

How does one look at a side other than Top, Front, or Right? This is what seems to not work correctly.

If you try following the third step, I think you’ll see the problem.

~Dave

[rhinorudi]

@DigiFabLab

If you try following the third step, I think you’ll see the problem.

I have tried your example with standard & universal settings in the Preferences panel you requested.

They both act like you describe.

The issue is between the keyboard command and the right-click menu command for SetView.

If I use RMB in the Front Viewport, then set plane to World front and then SetView to Front, all is OK.

If I run SetView from the command and do the steps DigiFabLab describes,

select C-Plane

I get this …

Is this wrong? It seems to me it shouldn’t do this.