Helping Rhino3D is damage to Rhino3D?

Good evening to all,
I know that might sound arrogant, but I’m probably the best modeler Rhino3D (non-Grasshopper, non-Render, non-ect…, only 3D bezier modeler).

I learned how to work with Alias ​​in a European Center Style dedicated to car design.

But since the beta version of Rhino v1 I work from 8 to 12 hours a day with this wonderful software.

I learned to compare myself with Alias (the fast), IcemSurf (the furious), and Rhino (F&F).

3 are the rules of 3D in the car design:

  1. Only Bezier surfaces (no Span, so no NURBS. But for Rhino3D it is not impossible).

  2. It works with a few mother-surfaces and everything is done according to a specific building, the radius at the end and only where they are not part of the sketch, otherwise we proceed with other sub-theoretical constructions.

  3. The third rule is that the position tolerance is 0.001 mm and the angle of continuity are around 0.05 degrees (but this is also the solution to achieve continuity everywhere). This rule depends on the step in which you work (more tolerance in the beginning).

These three points are called “class-A”.
Any other definition is optimistic and would not be accepted in the finalization of a model of cardeisgn.

I have found over the years, and without knowing the basic math, that with Rhino you can come up with the rules and above all learn from other software how it build surfaces and especially the continuity.

Rhino3D is able to satisfy the principles of continuity, and Bezier, with an approach that is hidden between functions extremely interesting.

I would like to do some tutorial but I’m not convinced that this is good for the software.

After seeing that Virtual Shape was purchased by Alias, I thought Rhino3D to live must NOT compete with Alias, or with the immense Discreet.

Virtual Shape software said to be able to achieve class-A surfaces.
It was not true, not 100%. Let’s say 50% or less. After a while it was impossible to ensure continuity everywhere.

But Discreet bought Virtual Shape (for damage Rhino3D?). Very close to being competitive with Alias.

Alias ​​is not a softwate easy to learn, you learn only between professionals and oral transmission.
All courses will be not very or nothing useful. But it is used by all Centers Style.
Rhino for how I use it is 99% similar to Alias ​​because the mathematical rules to get those results are identical.

But I’m afraid of damaging Rhino 3D (if I explain how to get the same results as Alias ​​or ICEM).

What do you think?

Thanks and sorry for the initial arrogance.


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The first rule of Class A is You do not talk about Class A
The second rule of Class A is YOU DO NOT TALK ABOUT CLASS A!

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I do not see how this would be damaging, can you elborate?

"If sharing knowledge is damaging, than the damage is already done"


Hello Denny,
in a Style Center there are 3 phases:

  1. CAS (first representation of an idea)
  2. C-Class (freezing of the idea with 90% of the feasibility)
  3. A / B-Class (these are the phases in which the Center Style gets 100% of the feasibility and finalizes the surfaces).

For each step we take into account technical direction coming from engineering.
The third phase will include all Technical elements useful to industrialization.

Even if A-Class (Center Style side) not have all the 3D content (thickness, ribs, etc.) they are protected to contain what is useful for molding process.

The A-Class (Center Style side) is still the top quality in terms of surfaces, because there is the ultimate in cleanliness consistent with the technical complexity.

PS.outside of companies with tens of thousands of employees, in which the Center Style is a very autonomous unit, classes-A are another thing (then it depends very much on the type of business and methodology).

Hello Willem,
I am afraid that Discreet buy, sooner or later, even McNeels (after Softimage, after Virtual Shape, after other competitors …).
Rhino costs 1000 €, Alias ​​Automotive around € 50,000 per license (the version “Alias ​​Design” costs more than Rhino and makes 20% of the things that makes Rhino).
If they do the same thing, but Discreet is huge, it may not be good for the future of a platform so innovative and versatile as Rhino3D.

Maybe I’m wrong …

Hi Ferrozzo,

I have general questions regrading Automobile industry.

  1. How much do average A-class surface modelers earn a year? Let’s say in the United States.
  2. Do A-class modelers have deign background? Specialized education? If so, where?



Hello Kevlism,
it is always important to separate the concept of class-A for an engineer, and the concept of class-A for a stylist.

Typically in a Style Center who works on classes-A has many years of work on the lower classes. It requires sensitivity to the style language and the technical aspects.

In general, those who work A-classes in a Style Centere is a designer who does not have the chops to be an excellent stylist but it is one that knows how to convert deftly sketches in 3D.

In the U.S. i do not know how much you can earn but I think that you need to be a provider for a consulting company (to enter in a Style Center).In Sweden you can earn  8000€ per month or more (and even more in Australia). But it depends on your level and the company you work for… and the software (ICEMsurf __)

I recommend studies in the field of car design (within schools that teach Alias ​​and other CAD as Rhino).


Hi Marco,
so if I understood correctly:
you would teach (with a tutorial) how to achieve class-A surfaces but you’re afraid that, after this, Discreet would see Rhino’s power so will buy it and license’s cost will grow from 1.000€ to 50.000€ as Alias.
Couldn’t it be, instead, that Alias’s users can see Rhino’s potentiality and decide to buy 50 licenses of it instead of Alias’s one?


Hi Marco,

I still don’t see how creating tutorials about how to do your type of surface modeling would damage Rhino. To be honest, I would be surprised if none of the big players in CAD-land have already shown interest in Rhino. If I’m not mistaken, the business model of Rhino and the way it’s ownership is setup, it is not a company that is as easy to buy as other companies are.


All this is just a tempest in a teapot…

  1. If McNeel wanted to sell out to Autodesk it would be done by now…
  2. Alias, ICEM and the like have been specifically targeting the automotive market for a long time, whereas Rhino has always considered that as just one small market segment.
  3. Car companies don’t care about software prices, the more expensive, the better. They like “tailored” solutions and the focus on the trade that automotive specific software has.


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Just to have some facts right:

Autodesk bought:
-Discreet Logic and Kinetix in 1999 (they are merged into Discreet)
-Alias Systems in 2006 (Discreet division is renamed MED and incorporates Alias)
-Opticore and Skymatter (Mudbox) in 2007
-Softimage in 2008
-T-splines in 2011
-Virtual Shape and Delcam in 2013

I remember these mainly because I knew people working at some of these companies. Discreet and Softimage were in Montréal, Alias in Toronto.

Hi Ferrozzo,

I think you can do this in rhino very easy, please see the 3rd/4th post in the thread.

I have see some skilled people do 1span srf in rhino,they can build a car in the icem way,but I don’t know the principle,can you help me in the above thread?


Personally I would find any additional tutorials on Class A surfacing very useful. I have been actively looking for this information.

“The secrecy shrouding so many techniques is evidence of small minds trying to protect small properties.” - Charles Lewton-Brain

Hello asdfsjal,
I read your post but what I mean is very different.
The matching is only part of the problem. The work of A-Class (but also a C-Class) is recursive and it’s useful to study the best possible construction.
It’s not exclusively a problem of matching, maybe you can work several minutes on a sharp object but in order to ensure opportunities to the next step (matching, etc…).
This week i am very busy with work (including week end) but by the end of next week i try to give you an example.
You should proceed for views, work planes, curves, well-set, and finally realizes the first sharp forms.
The rounded corners are the last step (good job, your procedure contains part of what I’ll try to explain). But where I work is almost forbidden surfaces in 3 sides. The radius are done in other ways. And always in a very different way from the crude method of traditional CAD (CATIA, UG, Pro-E, …). In surface design the aesthetic part is well cared and everything that is not aesthetic is not represented (exist the engineering work for this content).

But to have a clean matching exists “functions” not widely used in Rhino3D but really very useful.
Bye, see you next week

Hi Ferrozzo - I would not hesitate to make Class A tutorials. No Rhinos will be harmed in the process.




My mom told me I was the best rhinoer 3Der :sob:


Must…resist…urge…to…say…“But… that’s… what… she… told… me… last… night”

It’s no good I have no self control :smile:


You’re just a bad Boyes… Go to your room now… :smiling_imp:

hope I’m not too late to get into the discussion on Class A surfaces. Here goes, I am a student of drawing ,period. How I learn is who better can show me or if I can get it on my own. If someone is generous enough to have a tutorial on class A ,i will be in line to learn . Thanks before hand . I do enjoy the civil conversations in this forum; very intelligent folks .

Yes, please do make a class A tutorial.

Its amazing to think that a proper and decent class-A tutorial doesn’t even really exist for rhino.