Is there any news concerning this topic?
1 Like
Just to clarify, I’m not advocating a live 2D view of the model. A manual updating process would work for me. Live, uncontrolled updates of drawings scares me because of the changes that can be made being fairly extensive in the work I do. I want to see old and new views side-by-side and visually audit the change before replacing the original. If make2D curves were copied to paperspace and scaled, that would almost be enough, but I want the benefit of the view being in a scalable detail frame for more control, I don’t want loose geometry in paperspace. Also want to work to paperscale, not 1:1 and scale the print.
- Model creatively with as few restrictions to the free-flow of ideas as possible (which rhino is great for and other packages overstep the mark and become an interference.)
- Assign attributes (things that would get in the way of 1. above.)
- Create drawings in paperspace only (sections, elevations, plans, etc…based solely on detail settings but manually/scriptably created and editable. Maybe in a worksession file to keep model clean.)
- Create deliverables in a separate worksession file.
- Iterate (fail quickly and fix quickly)
I dislike make2D curves in model space. I don’t even like clipping planes in model space though so maybe I’m just broken…
1 Like
McNeel, please add vector output to PDFs printed from Layout.
I used the Layout tool for the first time yesterday because I needed to add dimensions to a drawing. When I opened the printed PDF in Adobe Illustrator to add some colour, I was really surprised and disappointed that the lines were all raster. I soon discovered that the only way to get vectors out of Layout is to print Wireframe, which makes a really messy looking drawing:
I just want the vector drawing to look like this:
I understand there is a workaround with Make2D, but the problem with Make2D is that it doesn’t live update. It’s a static “shot” of the model at that point in time. If I make a change to the design in 3D, then I’ll need to repeat the whole Make2D process, reconnecting all the dimensions and annotations.
I downloaded the demo of Rhino 7 just now to see if simplified vector drawings could be exported from Layout, but unfortunately not.
1 Like
VisualArq offers the ‘Hidden’ display mode, which can do vectors as you need. Here’s a simple example PDF:
vectors.pdf (23.1 KB)
(Color fills are also possible, by modifying the display style)
It’s quite debatable that Rhino ootb should have such a display mode, because VA costs something.
Thanks Eugen, VisualArq looks like it has the functionality I was after. However, I’m just doing this drawing as a one-off to get a quote for some cabinetry for a home renovation (I’m not an architect or interior designer) so I don’t think the cost and time to learn VisualArq is worth it in my particular situation. I’ll stick to the Make2D process for the time-being.
(I studied landscape architecture and now know why they didn’t teach us about Layout in Rhino - they taught us to use Make2D to export linework straight to Adobe Illustrator)
There are some points which actually limit VisualArq a lot:
- You can not generate pure sections but only Section and View
- VisualArq does not support Rhino Layout tools, so you have to put VA’s Vieports in Model Space.
I am actually using a lot Rhino Layout, I think this are the main points to be resolved:
- Vector output is a must
- Layers display when switching from Model to Layout space is a nightmare, You have to switch Layers On all the time in Model space to have them available in Layout.
I am actually using Safelayout which does a great job, I think this should be default in Rhino!
5 Likes
Which is such a pity! I still want to believe that Rhino has the potential for a workflow without any additional 2D software. What’s missing has been elaborated in this thread already, in detail. However, I’d like to add my 2 euro cents, and try to recap.
Can we agree that:
-
Putting Make2D or VisualArq plan/section views in the model space should be an absolute no-go! This has always been a workaround! Why should I have to mess up my 3D scene with 2D plunder somewhere far off ? (This is 90ies-AutoCAD style… gosh, how I hate this crapping around…)
-
So, 2D plans derived from the 3D scene should go where they belong - in the Layout space, which is the 2D drawing environment of Rhino anyway (and not the worst there is!)
-
These Make2D / vaPlanViews should be parametric blocks (vaPlanViews already are).
It is already possible to place regular blocks (even containing 3D stuff) directly into the Layout, and they can be exploded - nice! These new plan blocks (Make2DBlock or something) should be explodable, too, of course. -
Normal Blocks as well as these new plan blocks need a scale parameter (1:100, etc), for obvious reasons.
-
They need to be parametric, meaning updateable on demand (vaPlanViews already are in the model space).
-
A better section tool would be good in the model space, plus parameters for all sectionable objects for hatch stlye, line thickness etc. (an existing VA feature), which this new plan blocks should show.
-
They should as little overlapping line clutter as possible.
-
Generally, the idea for the Layout space should be not only plan graphics, but general purpose 2D drawing á la Illustrator (Affinity Designer).
-
For which a good WYSIWYG preview is needed. Line start/end style should be changeable (rectangular, rounded, …).
-
IMPORTANT: since the Layer visibility toggle (light bulb) in model space works as a ‘master switch’, it is too easy to f* up the Layouts by simply turning on/off layers there - which one usually does when working.
I would suggest a second visibility icon in the model space Layer panel, which effects exclusively the model space (exactly like it is already in Layout space - there are 2 columns of light bulbs already).
This second visibility toggle can then be used during work, and the ‘master switch’ only when it really needed to turn off a layer everywhere (which can make sense, too). -
Draw Order should be sorted out in Layout space. Overlapping details, and objects directly on the Layout should blend on top of each other reliably and logically (which is not the case as of now).
-
Layers should have an extra DrawOrder parameter (independent of the layer sort order) - I concur to that.
-
Vector PDF as well as DWG export should be possible from Layouts (the first is an existing VA feature, the second they say is planned).
-
Make a deal with AsuniCAD (VA) to avoid inventing the wheel twice - some of their features can be useful for almost all users, some are of course are architecture specific.
-
The problem of associative dimensions that break when moved is a hard nut to crack I suppose.
If that remains unsolved, so be it. However, it would be great if the history in general would not break so easily when the resulting object and it’s input objects are moved together. Goes for Layout space, too.
Thanks for reading!
Best regards
Eugen
11 Likes
Hi @luca4
We’ve been talking about getting VA for the (few) architecture jobs we do. Can you explain what the above means? I’m not sure I understand the implications and consequences of this.
TIA, Jakob
Hi @Normand
prompt answer from Eugen on his first point quoted below.
If you have any doubt just download and test VA. Maybe is ok for you!
I am working mainly at Marine Projects where VA does not add almost any useful feature.
1 Like
Jakob,
VA can create plan and section views, which are ‘dynamic/parametric’ blocks. After you invoke the vaPlanView command, in a Top view, ,ou draw a rectangle around the 3d part you want to show, then click somewhere in the model space to place this 2d plan - more or less like Make2D.
You cannot place them directly on a layout. For that you need to create a Detail in the Layout which shows the part of the 3d scene with the plan. I was referring to this.
‘dynamic’ means the vaPlan stays kind of live. After you change the 3d scene, you simply do a vaUpdate on the plan. No need to recreate it. Make2D cannot do this (yet).
Another restriction of it is it cannot be a free 3d section. Only elevation of floor plan.
By all means, test VA and decide. I like it. A lot actually. I wonder what Osuire made ‘hate’ it… VA isn’t perfect, but it has much on the useful side.
Best
Eugen
1 Like
Since McNeel is using the open source Cycles for rendering, perhaps they could incorporate this open source project for layout & drafting?
1 Like
This is sooo true, it is indeed 90s !
Putting Make2D or VisualArq plan/section views in the model space should be an absolute no-go! This has always been a workaround! Why should I have to mess up my 3D scene with 2D plunder somewhere far off ? (This is 90ies-AutoCAD style… gosh, how I hate this crapping around…)
So, 2D plans derived from the 3D scene should go where they belong - in the Layout space, which is the 2D drawing environment of Rhino anyway (and not the worst there is!)
3 Likes
Of course this should remain possible, for experiments of all kinds, but for ‘serious’ drafting work, 2D plans should go to the Layout.
However - I just tested RhinoInsideRevit for the first time yesterday. That’s a massive workflow improvement! Well done! It would be tempting now so say: model in Rhino, draft in Revit (which many people supposedly will do now), so why add better drafting tools in Rhino? Because not every architect wants to afford or likes to work with Autodesk software.
yes, that is true you would end up paying a fortune just for the 2D drafting tools which makes up about 15% percent of the total work (at least for me…)
May I ask if you know any good tutorial describing the RhinoInsideRevit workflow? I tried it casually but was not very successful in bringing the Rhino created objects back into Revit…
I saw it first just yesterday…
But let’s keep this thread on topic. Here’s the right forum link:
1 Like
IMO make2d and sectioncut results should not be put into layouts directly. I like the way Archicad handles this - it puts these things on what they call “worksheets”, which basically are seperate 2d modelspaces, where you can work on a sectioncut in 1:1 scale, and you can use these with detail-views from layouts as per usual. You really want to work in 1:1 scale and not in paperspace uints. You could also use these worksheets to directly draw 2d details and so on without polluting the 3d modelspace.
4 Likes
This 2D modelspace you mention is actually a Layout in Rhino, protentially…
If such ‘Make2D parametric blocks’ could be placeable on Layouts, they would definitely need a “scale” parameter! Regular Blocks (also 3d) can be placed on Layouts already, so, generally, every block should have a scale parameter for the layout space. That should suffice.
Opinions?
Hi @luca4
I’d like to better understand these two points. With VisualARQ you can show the 3D model in plan view or section view in page layout Details. So no need to put extra 2D drawings in the model space. If you use the Hidden display mode in these detais you will be able to print that to vector output. This video shows how it works for Sections:
Not really: ARCHICAD has a modelspace (one), layout space (one), and as many separate “2D spaces” as many “Worksheets” you create.
Pretty powerful not to clutter your model and keep fast drawings/sketches or details, or any garbage (e.g. manufacturer data) separate and contained.
You can reference them to the model, copy-paste, etc.
1 Like