Layout & Drafting: What's the plan?

[Eugen]

@jsbzh

Archicad struggle with working with medium size STL files that have more than 50k faces

Oh boy, you are right! Struggling with this, too. ArchiCAD is cool, but how come such a highly developed software can be brought to it’s knees by importing some stupid mesh with a polycount every cellphone is comfortable with…

@jsbzh

other information about the object (not depending on the layer; already a bit in rhino) that can be added with a plus and minus button or for future smart planning developments, such as cost or other relevant factors.

You mean Attribute User Text? Create key/value pairs to your liking.

VisualArq brings ‘real’ custom parameters, though:

@mary

Section Style controls the fill style that the object is clipped with.

Please include the colors of the section, too! Really.

But wait! I sniff a chance here to really boost Rhino’s drafting capabilities…
A proposal:
Why not generalize ‘Section Styles’ to ‘Styles’? These ‘Styles’ would be applicable to objects or layers, and would contain all the usual parameters for an object’s appearance:
Display Color, Display Mode, Material, Linetype, Linetype Scale, Print Color, Print Width, Clip, Section Pattern, Section Pattern Rotation, Section Pattern Scale, S.P. foreground color(!), S.P. background color(!).
You mentioned a Section Style Manager (btw. the link is private). Make it a Style Manager, where a list of styles can be defined.
Every object parameter would then have an additional value ‘By Style’, so it can either follow a style or have a local override.

The great advantage of this would obviously be to have a central hub to change many object’s params at once.
Some time ago I uttered the wish for global colors. These ‘Styles’ I just mentioned would deliver global colors as a by-product!

To take this even further, Layouts/Details could have this Style parameter, too, to globally override what’s shown. This would make things possible we know from the ‘big’ architectural apps like ArchiCAD, Revit etc.

Think about it: there’s a Style defined, maybe ‘shop drawing 1:500’, where you define the complete looks of what goes to paper (or DWG output, please). Change maybe a color or a linestyle in the Style Manager, and pling!, the complete drawing changes. Pretty much what Display Styles already do for the viewport appearance, but for print.

Not that I have thought this through fully (how could I), but doesn’t this sound tempting…
Thanks!

[jsbzh]

@Eugen

Oh boy, you are right! Struggling with this, too. ArchiCAD is cool, but how come such a highly developed software can be brought to it’s knees by importing some stupid mesh with a polycount every cellphone is comfortable with…

That’s hilarious! It’s so true, too.

@Eugen

Why not generalize ‘Section Styles’ to ‘Styles’? These ‘Styles’ would be applicable to objects or layers, and would contain all the usual parameters for an object’s appearance:
Display Color, Display Mode, Material, Linetype, Linetype Scale, Print Color, Print Width, Clip, Section Pattern, Section Pattern Rotation, Section Pattern Scale, S.P. foreground color(!), S.P. background color(!).

That’s what I was referring to with classes. If we can modify each section parameter, then I’m on board.
(Some countries require specific line thickness for building applications, so you may need to draw everything twice in 2D + photoshop for color to meet the requirements.)

[Eugen]

@jsbzh

That’s what I was referring to with classes.

Looks like the time is ripe for something like this!

Please, McNeel, don’t get lost in details with this topic, but look at it from a meta-level!

[Archi-BC]

For architects’ node drawing work, such as 1:50 or smaller scales, we have some more detailed drawing requirements.
For a finer slice thickening effect, we want the edge lines of the solid we slice to be offset inward instead of being thickened directly. This makes the display more accurate.
In addition, we usually need flexible section material overlay function, solid seams of the same material should be hidden and not thickened, and cut lines for high-priority solids should completely cover low-priority solids.
The following image is a very simple demonstration. The drawings come from the AutoCAD plugin.

[ivan.galik]

@jsbzh

I don’t want to offend anyone

Please dont feel like offending someone when you are polite and on the topic. It is an ill trend of the era that some individuals need to feel offended with everything, but i doubt thats the case on this forum.

[Macuso]

BOM, BOM, BOM. I do badly need BOM support in Rhino.

[rajaa (Rajaa Issa)]

@jsbzh
Thank you for your post. I can understand how styles or classes for objects attributes or properties can be useful.

In terms of sectioning enhancements in Rhino 8, the next Rhino WIP will include a more tight integration of SectionTools plugin using a new “Section Object”. For example, sections created with the new ClippingSection command (used to be called stCreate) can now be selected, copied, deleted, etc. using regular Rhino commands. If you are familiar with SectionTools, 3D and 2D geometry of sections and elevations are organized in the layer manager, and can be updated with model changes.

More details will be posted soon to explain the functionality and workflow of sectioning in the Rhino WIP using SectionTools and the related new enhancements in object properties and ClippingPlanes. Here is a quick video yo give general idea:

[walther (Andreas Walther)]

looks promising !

[jsbzh]

Thank you for the sneak peek. It appears that the new feature could be helpful. The section tool was not useful so far. I was wondering if the feature also transfers the view of what is behind, including rendered style or point clouds?

I would like to share a current small project that I am working on to illustrate the problem from a meta standpoint. Ultimately, for construction companies and public offices, we need to break down the project into 2D plans (sections, elevations, floor plans, etc.). Luckily, the form work company handles 3D-data

So, what do we do? We basically draw sections over clipped objects to achieve a simple drawing. In the layout, we set the visibility. As the project progresses, it has become increasingly difficult to organize in Rhino, particularly since the object is a sculpted mesh that has undergone multiple transformations. Currently we are at a scale of 1:50. 1:20 and 1:10 are still to come.

The simple plan looks like this:

To achieve only the previous screenshot in Rhino, I have to do this:

and this:

and I have to move it away from this:

The clipped object in the section is rendered which helps to communicate. Shaded view, wired view and “Make2D” do not work in this case. Arctic view or here, rendered view is great for this – it looks good, and it is cheap!

Later point cloud data will be added for placement, which again will at some point have to be broken down into 2D drawings…

[Eugen]

@rajaa

next Rhino WIP will include a more tight integration of SectionTools plugin using a new “Section Object”.

Thanks, this is great news! These are suddenly becoming useful.
3 things:

• Please add an auto-update feature (as an option).

• Please allow the section output to target layouts directly!
  Why? Layouts are the 2D environment in Rhino. 2D drawings like sections/elevations belong there, not in the 3D model space, where they contaminate the scene, create problems of layer visibility, or simply get in the way. And having Detail views in a layouts that looks into the 3d scene to show some 2d stuff is also slightly absurd.
  (I don’t understand why everybody seems to shy away from using layouts as they were meant to be. Is this because they have a traditionally bad reputation? Hen and egg problem. If you don’t push them, how can they ever become good.)

• Any plans to add section jogs?
  Thanks!

[rajaa (Rajaa Issa)]

@Eugen

Please add an auto-update feature (as an option).

The auto update happens in all the cases when the section or its properties is changed., but still needs triggering the update command when objects are added, deleted, or some properties changes. The main reason for not updating during model changes is to avoid slowing down modeling. I see a case for AutoUpdate option for smaller models or when the model is stable and it is important to keep geometry in synch. Is that what you have in mind?

@Eugen

Please allow the section output to target layouts directly!

I’ll elaborate on this one when I put together the SectionTools details. I’ll love your feedback there.

@Eugen

Any plans to add section jogs?

Not at this time.

[Eugen]

@rajaa

I see a case for AutoUpdate option for smaller models

I just mean it should be up to the user to decide wether use an automatism or not. It will become obvoious quickly when calculation time is too slow, then you can turn it off.

[ivan.galik]

Id like to join the conversation.

I think jogged sections or sections along curve (in both cases there is a neccessary step of unrolling or developing that clipped intersection into 2d) are intertwined with clipping plane capabilities.

Once we promote rhinos core functionality of clipping PLANE to clipping SHAPE which could be any shape basically then the section tool could just do anything.

Another logical step from here would be having namedsections where all this would be defined and placable anywehere as @Eugen says not to contaminate 3d space if not desired.

Another prerequisite to have proper section view tool is to have vector based technical drawing style available with more advanced options about how to display geometry in certain cases.

I think what is already now possible is to apply section styles very granularly per object or per layer or possibly differently in any detail view. However i think the section styles options themselves are too limited and unneccessarily coupled with display mode options.

And cherry on top is one thing which no software has to offer is to have associative edditing of generated section. For example where two solids meet you will have a thick line but in drawing you want to display that solid line just as a dashed line because its only different part of joined concrete wall. Imagine it like creating website on wix and having mobile version associatively adjusted from desktop version by hiding certain elements.

All of the above combined would be one robust and versatile tool for whatever (under an assumption it would be bugfree and reliable).
Thats what my expectations are for a software to manage in third decade of 21st century.

[rajaa (Rajaa Issa)]

@ivan.galik

Once we promote rhinos core functionality of clipping PLANE to clipping SHAPE which could be any shape basically then the section tool could just do anything

I agree that this is tied to ClippingPlane functionality. It is on the list

@ivan.galik

Another logical step from here would be having namedsections where all this would be defined and placable anywehere as @Eugen says not to contaminate 3d space if not desired.

SectionTools does save a NamedView with the name of the section, and is aligned with the section view, clipped, and the CPlane is also aligned. This can be referenced from Layout view if one prefer this approach to layout. The second approach the SectionTools support is to use 2D projections (essentially a dynamic Make2D), and those can be used for layout (they update with model changes as well). Does that come close to the workflow you are thinking of?

@ivan.galik

Another prerequisite to have proper section view tool is to have vector based technical drawing style available with more advanced options about how to display geometry in certain cases.

This is on the list.

@ivan.galik

I think what is already now possible is to apply section styles very granularly per object or per layer or possibly differently in any detail view. However i think the section styles options themselves are too limited and unneccessarily coupled with display mode options.

Yes, adding hatch property made it possible for sections to use object properties (including print width, linetype, color, etc) when create sections. What would a SectionStyle look like in your opinion?

@ivan.galik

And cherry on top is one thing which no software has to offer is to have associative edditing of generated section. For example where two solids meet you will have a thick line but in drawing you want to display that solid line just as a dashed line because its only different part of joined concrete wall. Imagine it like creating website on wix and having mobile version associatively adjusted from desktop version by hiding certain elements.

Make2D does not support detecting intersections at this time, but this looks like a good place to start exploring this functionality. Do you have an example to share?

[Eugen]

@rajaa

SectionTools support is to use 2D projections (essentially a dynamic Make2D), and those can be used for layout (they update with model changes as well).

Can this dynamic section be placed on a layout (without a detail of course) already? That would be it!

[rajaa (Rajaa Issa)]

@Eugen

Can this dynamic section be placed on a layout (without a detail of course) already? That would be it!

Clipping2DLayouts of ClippingSections are organized in the layer table, and they can be turned OFF in the modeling space, and turned ON in paper space (all other layers turned off). Would that be sufficient?

[Eugen]

Ok, but where does the actual line geometry sit then? In model or layout space?
What is placed in layout space directly is visible just there anyway, so turning off layers wouldn’t be necessary.
With layout space I mean directly on paper, not seen through a detail view. That’s what I mean.

[mich.platter]

@rajaa

SectionTools does save a NamedView with the name of the section, and is aligned with the section view, clipped, and the CPlane is also aligned.

Are you talking about the 3rd party SectionTools plugin, or will this be a native Rhino feature?

[rajaa (Rajaa Issa)]

@mich.platter

Are you talking about the 3rd party SectionTools plugin, or will this be a native Rhino feature?

It is now native feature in the Rhino WIP

[rajaa (Rajaa Issa)]

@Eugen

Ok, but where does the actual line geometry sit then? In model or layout space?

I think one way to think about 2DLayouts, or paper space, in Rhino is that they are windows into the 3D modeling space. SectionTools was built with that approach in mind.