Layout & Drafting: What's the plan?

Are you using layouts? If you are, then we can get accurate line weights to show.

I’ll dig into this and will be able to give better answers soon.

Admittedly I do not do a lot of drafting in rhino, that’s why I was polling users for their opinions.

It sounds like @mary needs to post a short video on Layouts. It sounds like the main feature we are missing is instructions… and maybe a bit of UI tune-up.

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To solve Kyle’s problem of just trying to get WYSIWYG wire weights we could just turn the PrintDisplay feature on by default for layouts. You should be able to still turn this feature off, but the default mode of “off” is probably not the right setting for layouts.

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there is this series- https://vimeo.com/channels/715875/page:2

@bobmcneel I am working on a short video on Rhino 7 layouts. I will post it soon.
@theoutside, that tutorial series has good information, but it was done with Rhino 5. It needs to be updated for Rhino 7.

Details are windows into the model geometry. Geometry is typically full size on the model, and it is shown to scale by scaling the detail on the layout. Make2d can create elevations, sections, and plans.

This collection of Make2D curves are not linked or historical. If the model updates, the Make2D does not, it has to be regenerated.

The VA “Update” sections and views is good option for those that want link between the geometry and 2D view. In both cases, Make2D or the VA views/sections produce geometry in the model that needs to be setup on a layout.

@stevebaer’s point, it is more difficult to get it right in 3D. If you add a Layout to Rhino with 4 details, you already get the World Top, World Front World Right and Perspective.
Scale and arrangement are now a manual task.

A UI that adds Detail views to the layout in a more automatic or systematic way need to be brainstormed. Some have suggested created a details from a named view panel, dragging and dropping the named views on to the layout and prompting for scale. I think I have a YT for this, but I can not find it today.

These were logged many years ago.
Drag and Drop Details from NamedViews
Named Details

If you have a video of how ArchiCAD or other software you like works, send it along.

Thanks,
Mary Ann Fugier

When I’m using Rhino Layouts, this too is the way I feel. When drafting directly, 1:1, in a single ortho viewport , I LOVE it; one of the nicest drawing experiences I’ve found in CAD. I don’t know what it is about trying to manipulate views and details through a series of ‘letterboxes’, but for me it ruins the whole experience. There is a detachment that it brings to the drafting process that makes me feel like I’m trying to draw while holding a pen with chopsticks. The lack of robust alignment between related views (‘Details’ as Rhino calls them) of the same object, along with a lack of proper scaling tools, further frustrates.

Then one finds that line types don’t work WYSIWYG and the whole Layout thing just becomes too much of a hassle. Hopefully things have improved in V7. I’ll be having a look soon.

And please sort out parts balloons and their editing/manipulation. At the moment it’s torture.

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Thanks for this…I was wondering if perhaps I was the only one…

You aren’t the only one and I’m not defending our current layout system. If there are better ways to set up drawings, I’m open to change

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Couldn’t this solve the issues ? Make the 2D part of the software work like the Grasshopper does? You fire up the 2D drawing, it goes into a 2D only enviroment.

From there you can select/create the default page (with all the text fields and etc) page 0 would be only for the page itself to be edited, then you select Add New page, and it promps to select the objects you wish to be on that page. This way you could easily create a drawing for an assembly for example, that complete with objects properties to create a BOM table as well.

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What about getting a 3d perspective projection printed out?

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One thing that is Key IMO is the dynamic update with minimum effor if you need to edit of create a copy and modify it a bit

I come back to the thoughts I posted here on the subject some time ago. I sense, rightly or wrongly, that making Rhino into a fully 3D-to-2D associative drafting ninja is a wish too far. However, Make2D output could possibly be hooked up to Layouts to provide a semi-automated way of making production standard drawings, even allowing them to be revised/edited without having to completely scrap the original drawing.

Treating Layouts more like the window you’re presented with in the Print dialogue would be a good start. Use it purely to set up the basic drawing layout; scaling, view alignments, title block, perhaps parts tables. ***Don’t *** force the user to physically draft in it though. Do that someplace else, in an environment more akin to the standard Rhino viewport(s).

This is also where I’d enable the PrintDisplay setting. Make the whole thing feel like a bespoke workspace for producing a printed drawing, rather than a CAD model. Then the two won’t feel like they’re fighting for the same space. All of the settings laid out on the LHS of the space for controlling line display etc, just like in Print. That will also make it feel less alien to the user.

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Good idea, which I support! Would be similar to how it is done in Revit, or ArchiCAD.

I’m under the impression that not everybody here is familiar with Revit and/or ArchiCAD. Since I am, I’d like to point out a few things first, to make a better point how Rhino layouting should improve.
I’m not advertising Revit here (and there are things about it that I loathe), but when it comes to drafting, it does things right.
In our architectural office we use Rhino/Adobe for the design/study/competition phase, and Revit for the execution planning, where all the ‘hardcore’ technical drawings have to be produced (plus AutoCAD for detail plans. Could theoretically be Rhino, but yeah).
Revit is indispensable in the second phase because 1) it does BIM, and 2) it’s drafting/layout capabilities are extremely powerful. So what are the differences:

  • Rhino Layouts / Revit Sheets
    These are similar. Views can be placed on Sheets, and 2D drawing is possible.


    Yes, dragging/dropping views in Rhino Layouts, would be cool!

  • Rhino Details / Revit Views
    Very different. Each Revit View (can be 2D or 3D) is per se a ‘window’ into the 3D scene, kinda like a ‘live Make2D’ drawing, but one that you can directly work in. There is no Rhino-like ‘model space’ / ‘master 3D scene’. Annotations (including lines/curves) can be done in all Views, but are a per-View property, visible only in this view.
    Regarding the ‘looks’ of a View - there are these super powerful ‘Visibility/Graphics overrides’ - you can filter very granularly what shoud be shown in a View and what not:

These settings, which can be quite complex to set up, can also be saved as ‘View Templates’, for re-use in another View, or project. They can furthermore be overridden per-object, e.g. an object can be hidden, or have some other color, just in one View.
So, using V/G overrides, you can make a View look like abstract infographics, or a full-blown technical drawing.

Now some suggestions:

  1. One major hassle is, it’s way too easy to break what is shown in Rhino Layouts! Basic principle should be: if a Layout looks right, it should remain like so, and never break by accident. Can never happen in Revit.
    The analogy to ‘V/G Overrides’ in Rhino would simply be layer toggles. Fair enough, they are remembered per-Detail. Revit does not have layers, but instead long filter lists - I can live quite fine with layers.
    Attention now, please (sorry - I’m repeating myself here):
    Problem: toggling Layers in the model space turns them off everywhere!
    Solution: add another column of light bulbs to the layer panel also in model space.
    image
    Exactly like Details already have! The left column of light bulbs should only be touched if there is the conscious decision to turn a layer off everywhere. The second column of toggles is for all the mundane stuff like hiding/isolating - what needs to be done all the time when working the 3d scene.
    (This would need some reworking of Layer States, then.)

  2. Get rid of this History break problem when moving Annotations on Details together! Nasty also in model space when moving e.g. a curve plus it’s extrusion with History on.

  3. Pity that linework put on top of Details gets misaligned when panning/zooming the Detail. Could never happen in Revit, too.
    How about some associativity of 2D linework with a Detail scale, if needed? After all, dimensions are smart enough for this. Lines/curves etc. could be, too.

  4. Better WYSIWYG. That’s a curve’s end in Rhino, with PrintPreview on:
    image
    … and this is what the Rhino PDF looks like then:
    image
    Here’s a screenshot of Affinity Designer’s line start/end options:
    image

  5. Without wanting to spoil VisualArq’s business model: DWG export. Should not be necessary to use a BIM plugin for that. Section tool and section hatch styles should be there ootb, too.

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Thanks for the input. I couldn’t agree more about this comment and I’ve been struggling for a long time with how we would do this without driving people even more insane. I’ll try to mock up some examples of where this gets hard and see if we can come up with a decent solution.

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I like the Visibility/Graphic Overrides panel you show. It would be interesting to learn more about those column headings. Something like this would be good to have as part of a Layouts workspace, perhaps as a pull-out panel, though if it obscured the view that one is working on that might be counterproductive. Do the changes made propagate dynamically?

For point 1., what advantage does that approach confer over, for example, adding the extra Layer On/Off column to something like the above Visibility/Graphic Overrides panel?

Point 2. - Rhino History doesn’t offer support for a sufficient proportion of Rhino’s total number of commands for me. That’s why I avoid it except in special cases, where I’ll set up a separate model of a particular part for building something like a lofted surface. Layouts aren’t particularly relevant in that case.

Point 4. - Agree. Take a look at the effect pumping up line weights has on the appearance of arrowheads. They become comical.

There is actually a solution out there already , without having to add extra light bulbs. I am using extensively with Rhino 6 in my layouts.
SafeLayout actually let you manage layers visibility separately between Model and Layouts.
In layout space : All model layers will be always visibles (layout and detail spaces left untouched)
Model space has its own layers state.
In this way you can set up your detail views and there is no worry that working on the model changes your Layouts.
I think Rhino should behave exactly this way.

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Hi all, I think we are getting to the point.

I have not much experience on AutoCad/Revit/Archicad but more than 20 years with Microstation. There you have a lot of control on your layout but the workflow is quite demanding and far from straightforward. The software looks lost somewhere in the past (and affected by a crazy licensing policy) so I decided to quit.

I am trying to find my way in Rhino because I like it (together with McNeel attitude) a lot and because most of the geometry I exchange with Clients/Colleagues is Rhino: in the marine Industry is sort of standard.

Layout and Drafting is an important part of the game: there should be a way to produce nice drawings straight in Rhino without exporting static sections and views to be assembled in Autocad or similar.

Updating and revisioning is important as well: If I make my layout in a software other than Rhino is there some solution which keeps views, sections, notes and change geometry following Rhino file update?

Please find my suggestions to this topic in order of importance (more or less…):

  1. Vector Output is mandatory!

Output could be PDF / AI / DWG / 2D Rhino.

Advanced display modes could be a background image (as is currently) + vector overlay of ALL contours, lines, text, dimension, etc.

  1. Layer Management

Layer visibility on Model Space should be Independent from Layout Space: SafeLayout is a nice example, something similar should be implemented in Rhino. See my post above.

Regarding Layers I am currently structuring my files with a deep hierarchical structure, more or less like a Solid Modeler Structure Three. This helps Layout organization to control which objects are shown on Detail Views.

Regarding this could be useful being able to find an Object from Model to corresponding Layers and vice versa, more than having to select Layer/Select Object. Something dynamic Like a Layer/Object Highlight when I select or hover Object/Layer like Spaceclaim does.

  1. Sections Tools Improvements

This is a nice tool which unfortunately looks almost frozen to 2017, It is the only Dynamic tool available for layouts. Here some hints for developement:

  • Layers state should be associated to section: When I update the section, I do not have to bother to toggle layers or select items again.

  • Section Clips should remain always hidden.

  • All Options could be managed through a dedicated panel where I can see/manage a list of Sections and their attributes or toggle an update.

  • A panel like this would allow to drag and drop straight to a Layout (like suggested above), placing a detail view with correct orientation and Layer visibility.

I prefer to leave sections on their place in the model and compose my drawing with Layouts but, in case stLayout Command is used to place Sections on World XY plane:

  • Placed Sections should have the option to be rearranged. A Layout need always some tweaks!

  • There should be another Grip point option more than Center/Mid/Max . This is almost useless… If the object is modified and I update the section this is moved around, due to Grip point limitation. I think there should be a Zero Option related to Model Coordinates, say X=0 Y=0 for a Transverse Section which keep it always in place.

  1. Automatic Projection/Section/Detail

This is a typical feature on Solid Modelers, actually Rhino does it through the Make2D Command which places a static detail on World XY Plane. This should be Dynamic and directed to Layout. Model Space should be the place for the model only!

I think that Detail Views with proper linking of Sections, Clipping Planes and Display Modes could handle all of this.

Basic Stuff like placing a Projection / Section connected to a placed Detail View should be available right away!

  1. Text

Text management on layout is very basic: currently the only way to control text flow is to use Monospaced Fonts and adjust formatting through space tab. TAB should be implemented, if not some more word processor capabilities.

Could be useful, when drafting, to force all quotes/annotation on a Layout to be assigned to an “annotation” level, rather than active one and possibly link them to detail View as well.

  1. Excel Table Support

I think this is an important missing feature, discussed already on a long thread. There is a Tables plugin which allows to import some basic spreadsheets but formatting is not preserved. The only way so far to keep all formatting is to print a PDF from Excel then Import it into Rhino. This is static again and not as straightforward as a Copy/Paste OLE object.

  1. Packager

This is not related directly to Layouts but helpful to share Rhino files when their appearance relies on linked files and/or custom display modes, scripts, plugins. In my case I managed to generate a full design set composed of several sheets dynamically linked to 3d model but this cannot be replicated on another workstation if not tweaking the same display modes, scripts, plugin…

It is common in other CAD to have a “packager” utility which store all custom settings and dependent files to an archive ready to be shared.

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Since this idea does not seem to gather much traction, here’s another proposal:

If a ‘newbie’ take a closer look at the extra columns of a Detail’s layer panel…

… he/she will find these extra colums with settings specifically for this Detail.
They are easy to miss, because the columns are per default narrow, and the right part of the panel probably cut off (took me years until I discovered them by chance…)
The ‘Detail specific’ columns with the grey background work in fact like some sort of local style override, yes?

Now, what if the panel was simplified, like there’s only either the white or the grey part shown, with a ‘local/global’ toggle shown in the toolbar?
screenshot layer panel toggle

This would immediate simplify a Details layer panel, right?
Also, this toggle would exist for Details AND Viewports in model space. When working in model space, setting the panel to ‘local’ mode (or whatever you want to call it) means that changes there will not f* up the Layouts! Isolate/hide would now only effect the model space display.

So, there are global settings which can be overridden by per-view local settings. Revit takes this system of overrides to the max. There is a whole hierarchy of settings which define how an object looks like in a View…

… with ‘Project Object Styles’ at the bottom of the hierarchy:


… which are used when no style overrides exist (meaning no per-view and/or per-object settings have been made, like visibility, color, etc.).

These ‘Project Object Styles’ would be the analogy to these ‘global view settings’ in Rhino, but in a much simpler way! (I have seen people go btsht crazy about debugging a View when something is not visible, including myself).

What say you?

that would be my preferred solution, if the output is vector and if the dimensions I place actually keep attached to the drawing whenever I move them or change the scale

yes please

IMO a lot more is missing then just instructions to make working in layouts a pleasant experience. There is lot of manual work and carefulness needed to keep things going well. As far as UI tune-up, here a few easy ones that would already help a lot:

  • For organization, detail views should have their own layer (I simply put them on a layer called details) but it would be convenient if we could automate that created details go always to a (user specified) layer.
  • Same for title block having its own layer
  • Same for annotation objects having their own layer
  • Orthogonal details: when creating a layout, the layout page should have a scale setting (2:1, 1:1, 1:5, 1:10 etc) so that when details are added, they are added in the page’s scale to start with. When I evaluate student’s work details at the correct scale is a frequent thing that goes wrong. Sometimes details are slightly off (accidental scaling) but in many cases complete off (things like 1:3.231234). This page scale thing could be a text field/global parameter, so that for each detail you can choose page scale of choose an override.

Some of the things I have been struggling with I created scripts for, like aligning dimensions, adding part balloons and BOM, aligning orthogonal views, rounding detail scales, etc. but I concider these just workarounds, and hopefully temporary solutions until things like that get added to Rhino.

I fully agree, on Mac it is much clearer:

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