V8 button/macro/library rant

the new way that buttons/macros work is pretty horrible, I copy a button, I want to put some macro in there … start typing in the Command area and the whole window disappears, and I am typing in the commandline

ok, so guess we can’t type in there

shift-click to edit the button again, see & click Select or create a new macro button, which brings up another dialog, where I have to create a new macro, which opens in yet another window … jiminy christmas this is convoluted and clicky

I don’t want some throwaway macro in my default library so figure, hey I’ll create a library for throwaway macros … but the Library dropdown doesn’t have any New Library item, so how to create a library? Window > Toolbars? nope. Window > Macros? also nope. File > Properties > Options > Appearance > Toolbars? nope again. Tools > Toolbar Layout? I give up … seems the kafkaesque macos toolbar mess has been ported to windows

I only wanted to type a macro in a button

can’t all this macro/library linking be optional? like let me type stuff into the Command for a button and click OK without linking or creating a new “macro”, just do what you have to do and stuff it in the default library, or a special “user” library for such ad hoc macros, or whatever else

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Sigh, it was months and months ago that I complained about this.

Yes. That has now become so convoluted as to discourage all but the most assiduous user from even trying.

Is a really good way to describe it.

This is one of the few issues I really complain about because it seems like every time the toolbar editing system has been “improved”, in fact it hasn’t… It’s only gotten more complicated and hard to use. What was once a very simple, direct and efficient system in V2/V3 has evolved into an geekish programmer’s dream and an ordinary user’s nightmare.

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Can I ask why the changes have been made to the button editor?

Your rant didn’t exist when I slowly started typing mine this morning.

Everything I did today was for nothing because I was duplicating buttons instead of creating new ones. I think I am going back to V7 to use the Workspace Editor to clean up everything, then try to bring that into V8 for SVGs.

This is my 3rd time trying to move to the WIP, but the past three days have been brutal. I’m about ready to bail back to V7.

I tried moving to V8 twice and the whole buttons, panels, tabs, thumbnails, macros, and padding situation made me just quit.

We need better. I hope we get it.

G

The way this works is on the list to be fixed and the target is to fix this before release.
RH-70165 Toolbar: Simplify the editing

This is a bit of a guess from my side, but the way it currently looks, looks a lot like it does on the Mac side, and this is a part of the UI that probably stems from that part of the code.
I’ll state this again to make things clear: A big part of the Rhino rewrite is UI stuff to make Rhino truly platform universal, and this is just an enormous pile of work.

Yes, but to be blunt here, you guys started out on the wrong foot a long time ago.

I don’t know what actual problem the new “always-on” Default workspace to which you add other stuff actually is supposed to solve. The system was working OK before - already fairly complicated, but this just adds a whole other level of confusion to it, when it actually needed to be simplified rather than complexified.

Bringing over ANYTHING related to toolbar editing from the Mac side was also a mistake. The Windows side actually worked and was understandable.

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I don’t know what you mean with this

Where’s the file? There isn’t one (as far as I know) All the default stuff is there without being “invited”.

thanks, I see now what you mean and as far as I can tell there is indeed no way to close the default or to duplicate it and make it your own. RH-73798 Default rui cannot be closed or duplicated

As a user, customer, administrator, and person in charge of creating and managing customizations of our Rhino tools, I’m seeing mostly regressions here.

The reasons of why this regressions happen are not really relevant to our work, workflow, or business.

If you choose to make a system that’s compatible and universal with other operations systems, you should be much more aware of the level of pain you are willing to impose to your customers in the PC platform. And you should not overestimate the level of pain we are willing to accept.

I know advanced customer who edit a workspace are a minority in terms of percentage of users, but we are also running entire businesses that are highly dependent on having custom workflows.

I really hope you are listening and acting on this feedback. Please don’t screw this up so badly the way you are doing right now all the way to launching V8. You have some major fixing to do IMO.

Gustavo

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Hi all - The default toolbar (rui) is embedded in Rhino. You can link external RUI files and include them in your toolset on that page in Options.

-Pascal

example:

Hi Gijs,
As you see, it is intentionally designed this way.

I have several issues/questions about this way of doing things (relative to the “old” way).

  1. As per my previous post, I don’t understand what existing problem this is expected to solve. Maybe someone could enlighten me.

  2. Previously any modifications etc. one made to Default would be stored in the .rui file - which could saved under another name, be backed up, transferred to another machine etc. The nice thing about this system is that you know where all your information is.

  3. My current workspace is a copy of Default (saved under another name of course) that has then ben largely modified - new icons for some buttons, some default toolbars modified or added to, new custom toolbars, etc. Everything is in one place. I can even close this .rui and open some other workspace file - everything is preserved as how I left it. Modifying any other workspace file (including Default) has no effect whatsoever on my custom file - and vice-versa - they are not linked in any way.

  4. I work with clients and students in English, French, and German. I have schemes set up to open Rhino in each of these languages using the Default workspace so that I know what the client/student is seeing - plus I also teach using the Default workspace. The Default.rui workspace file is common for all languages. Any changes made show up in all of the sessions/schemes, so I am careful to not modify anything.

  5. Given all of the above, I don’t know the way forward. If I modify any of the tools in the now built-in Default for use my personal custom workspace, it will modify the tool in all other sessions as well (if I understood correctly). Granted, I can make new toolbars by adding them to a custom linked .rui, but that represents only about half of the modifications I have made to my custom workspace. The other half are modifications of the default tools, maybe changing an icon image or modifying the macro behind the button.

I am currently using my imported V7 workspace in V8 - which works OK for the moment, although I can’t take advantage of the new vector icons. I am pleased to see that some of the toolbar truncation problems which I reported for V7 appear to have been fixed, thanks for that! It appears that importing my workspace has made the default tools disappear - i.e. they are not both present. So is that it? If one opens a linked rui that the built-in default stuff gets hidden? If I hit the button “Create a new file and link” is that what copies out the default stuff I might need to a new file?

I would like to start updating my workspace as soon as I can - I have held off until now because the system had not stabilized. But we are now only a few months away from release…

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Except when you copy something across a .rui boundary, it’s copied by ref. That was my issue.
I copied a few hundred buttons to a different .rui, and when I started editing them, I found that I was overwriting the default.rui commands.

A separate RUI is now useless for customers with multiple licenses sharing custom toolbars within a team because it won’t contain any customizations. It’s a file of buttons referencing different functionality on different machines.

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I got a friend that works with Rhino 7 for Mac, he hates every subpixel of that UI.
Every time I wanted to help him in his machine, I tried for 5-10 seconds and then I went with a “install rhino on windows, lol”.
Please forget and carefully avoid anything about the UI for Mac.

Doing some testing on that now, will report back…

I started preparing my UI for Rhino 8 by replacing the icons from V7 with SVG icons made in Rhino 8. That part went pretty well for the most part. Some just would not “stick”, and no matter how many times I tried, it would revert back to the old ones. Eventually (with a few more weekly releases) that seemed to be fixed. But then all of the commands in the buttons disappeared.

I gave up. I figured these new UI changes were not mature enough for me to spend anymore time on just to lose my efforts. The plan was to revisit this closer to the release of V8.

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As a Mac user - and former windows user - I agree!

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Unfortunately that is on par with what i encountered. With every update my workspace got destroyed. Most anoying is that the panel positions are not saved. Saving and restoring them also does not work yet.

I hope all these issues can be solved before release… :smiley:

_
c.