V7 unable to work with its own dims settings

[Steve1]

Hi,
Take a V5 file, open in V7, cannot see the dims.
see attached.

I was meticulous in recreating the dims in properties by hand in V7 after install to win10.
They are same height, and same scaling .

These are dims placed onto Layout view as opposed to existing in model then seen in Layout view.
All are ok in V5 yet cant see them much in V7.

Attached both the V5 and V7 files stripped of all else, as its not something I wish to handout being valuable and a years work.

In V5 layout view sees them 0.1inch tall and readable in the A3 printout and pdf, and in V7, almost invisible.

I thought continue this project in V7, but instead faced with this, so back to V5 again !
Plan18a dims font minute in v7 this is V5 file.3dm (4.5 MB)
Plan18a dims font minute in v7 this is V7 file.3dm (6.1 MB)

Steve

[pascal (Pascal Golay)]

Hello- your font height is .01 - if you want it to appear as 0.1 then set it to that size.

-Pascal

[Steve1]

Hi Pascal,

but the text height has always been .01 and with model scale 10 it then becomes 0.1 (it says so under scale window as 'adjusted text height) in all my work.

I never altered scale, by default Rhion for some reason has it as scale 10, so a o.01 height is needed to get 0.1 text, this exists throughout ll my files in V5 and prior that V4. and all looks fine , life is good.

The specs are the same in properties for that dimension in V5 and in V7. see printscreens, both are 0.01

As said I meticulously copied the atrubutes if that dimension and all others into V7, took a week, being advised to do it all by hand.

Open file in V7, where again that same dimension name is set to the exact same properties of height 0.01 and scale 10 in properties, and it says height will be 0.1 , and the little diagram shows all is good, and its now different. Microscopic in fact.

Note its happening in layout view as dimensions, leaders etc added in layout view.

I need to be able to open all my V5 work with that dimension attribute in V7 and have it behave as in V5.

Steve

[jeremy5 (Jeremy)]

Hi @Steve1,

I’m not at my computer, so can’t check, but from memory that text height field is new in R6 or R7 - it didn’t exist in R5. So it’s an extra parameter you have to set now. I’d check it out in the help file.

Regards
Jeremy

[pascal (Pascal Golay)]

Hello- the file you sent has the dimensions in a layout, not model space.

if you want them to be .1, set them to .1

-Pascal

[Steve1]

Hi,
I have spent the day doing a test to show what is going wrong, see attached.

Firstly I cannot see any settings I have different in annotation properties,
see this.

Where are they wrong ?

if they are correct then what is going on !

One must be able to open v5 work into v7.

THE EXPERIMENT/TEST…
I create a file in V5 using dim style ‘Inch decimal Fraction 0.1inch tall’
I create a test piece in Top view design mode.

I then add some text and dims etc in layout view, same dims style active, all looks good, everything same size. So V5 no problems.

save it. close V5 open V7, go file open and open it,

and behold, all is a mess.

Firstly in design view,

1. Fractions are now one over another and not readable in the pdf printout when my XX/YY style WAS READABLE…, worse still when I use smaller dims.

2.The angle dim is misplaced, yet my settings match between v5 and v7.

3. no doubt other things would be different with a more in depth test.

4. then open Layout view AND DIMS, ANGLES, LEADERS are not as in V5. microscope needed.

CLEARLY SOMETHING IS WRONG. WHAT IS OK IN V5 DOESNT OPEN OK IN V7.

Do we have to redo all our dims, I have loads of layout plans in V5 0.1inch model space 10 ARE PERFECT !!!
In V7 its a mess. IF my properties for the dim style are correct then there is a massive problem.

My existing projects will be afflicted. Redoing all my dims is not an option ! I would imagine any Rhino user would not want to redo their dims either. One should be able to open V5 into V7 without redoing years and years of work.

I cannot find a way of getting the fractions one / beside the other as mine are.
How is that done, as my dim style was for one beside the other.

To open my work and continue where I left off 3 months ago, thanks to having to build a win10 so as to run V7 and appease Msoft, and be unable to at the moment with this, …do I have to return to V5 to work with existing files ?..cos look what happens, even in design mode dims are messed up.

Here are the test files.
Test dims Inch Decimal Fractional 0.1inch tall this file is created from new in Rhino V5.3dm (151.9 KB)
Test dims Inch Decimal Fractional 0.1inch tall file created new Rhino V5 opened in V7_.3dm (188.4 KB)

VERY WORRIED !

Steve

[jeremy5 (Jeremy)]

Hi @Steve1,

I had a mess about with your original R5 file, opening it in R5 and R7. I think R7 behaved as it should but R5 was doing something wrong: if you had model sizing turned on on the Annotations options page it would scale dimension text in layouts. If you unticked model sizing on the annotations page (not the styles pages) then it would display minute text like in R7 (because you specified 0.01" tall text).

Problem is you came to rely on the R5 bug to upscale your tiny text. Because R7 doesn’t have the bug you can no longer do that and need to size your text realistically.

@pascal, am I reading that right?

Regards
Jeremy

[wim (Wim Dekeyser)]

Hi Jeremy -

@jeremy5

am I reading that right?

I will agree with you that Rhino 5 does things very differently from Rhino 6 and later.

@Steve1 - If you have projects in Rhino 5 that only need minor adjustments, I would recommend to use Rhino 5 for those changes. Anything to do with annotations and text was completely overhauled when Rhino 6 came along. In Rhino 5, for example, text blocks did not have a style at all.

As for this one…

@Steve1

I cannot find a way of getting the fractions one / beside the other as mine are.

… that’s set in Document Properties > Annotation Styles > [your style] > Length units:

-wim

[Steve1]

Hi,
Test 2 …testing V7 own creations, shows that V7 is unable to open its own creations in Layout View !

dims and text made with dims style Inch decimal fractional 0.1inch tall appear 0.1inch tall in design views…GOOD !
Open the design in Layout View and the text and dims have almost vanished.

Add text and dims using the dims style in Layout view and immediately nothing is visible.
All this worked fine in V5, as one would expect. Something that works fine is not a bug is it ?

If V7 cannot open its own dims styles into Layout view at the expected appearance, surely thats a bug.

V5 came with model space scale 10 set as such in default.

V7 also comes with that set to 10 ! so one carries on with dims styles hand edited into properties.
All my settings match …two clicks to view the image.

The little diagram top right in dims properties shows all looks ok for scale 10 0.01inch high.

If we are expected to alter the default to 1 from 10 and enter height 0.1 and all the arrows 0.1 and so on, whats going to happen when we open a V5 into V7, the dims will go HUGE. Alter scale to 10 and they will be microscopic in Layout view.

I have loads of ongoing projects in V5 to continue with in V7, EXTREMELY WORRIED.

back to V7 here, so alter model space scale to 1 and no difference still microscopic.

create a new style 0.1 inch tall and apply to one of thousands of wonky dims and text boxes and now we see 0.1 inch tall, and have to alter the boundaries back to where they were, this for hundreds of boxes is **NOT ON !

But how do we get the existing dims from design view where they were 0.1inch tall to appear 0.1inch tall in a 1:1 scale layout detail pane ? Altering the style for dims, and more than one style is in use, several different ones for heights are in use, is adding extra workload and also will doing so upset the style in design view ? I am months behind as it is after 3 months rebuilding PC to win10.

Surely having a set of dims for design view and another set for layout view and somehow applying the Layout styles to the design view styles, how does one do that, activate the pane and try and select all the dims and leaders within it, avoiding any movement of it, as is so easy to do, and , …hells bells !

and this is V7, first step into the field and legs blown off already.

here is the test2 read its progress top to bottom, see what I refer to. two clicks to view it.
eye opening !

What other issues await, I havent done any work yet.

How is one expected to use V7 for dims in design view and dims in Layout when this happens ?

THE PROBLEM…What is the method for applying dims in V7, so that V7 dims will open as expected in Layout ?, and how to apply further dims and text when in layout view over deactivated detail panes, and also for working with V5 files ?

Unable to progress with work and V7…

Here are the test2 files:-
Test2 dims created in V7 then open as layout view fail.3dm (165.5 KB)
Test2 dims Inch Decimal Fractional 0.1inch tall file created new Rhino V5 this opened in V7.3dm (196.0 KB)
Test2 dims Inch Decimal Fractional 0.1inch tall file created new Rhino V5.3dm (164.6 KB)

Steve

[jeremy5 (Jeremy)]

Steve,

If you want to see this in R7:

instead of this:

then instead of this:

just make two changes to your style, like this:

That’s all.

Regards
Jeremy

[Steve1]

Hi,
so basically when starting a project , use dimension styles that are set with height 0.1inch and Model Space Scale 1
Dont use the default Model Space Scale 1:10 that V7 comes with.

V5 came with Model Space Scale 1:10 and I never knew why but just went with it.
Doing so has caused this inability to open into V7, though it opened into its own layout fine.
V7 using sty;e 1:10 scale doesnt opn into layout.
SO NOW ALL MY DIMS WILL BE IN 1:1 SCALE.

Test3.
Alter all dims styles in V5 to Model space scale to be 1:1 and alter all associated heights and arrow lengths to 10 x the former values. Keep Factor numbers at 1, other non scale things remain as is.
have I now got it right, files attached.
they are pre the rescaling V5,
after the rescaling V5
and that then opened into V7., where dims already altered to 1:1 scale

Do a printscreen before and after, compare and THEY STILL MATCH…PHEW…BINGO !

Save file, (attached) and open it into V7 where the styles have been also already made to be scale 1:1.
They are visible…BINGO…but not the same, offset a bit, and diameters are a longer ‘arm’

attached.
black is V5 with 1:1 scale in styles, red is that v5 opened into V7 with V7 styles pre altered to 1:1 scale.

what have I got not quite right in styles causing this ?

Font V5 was Arial - Arial and in V7 it says Arial. A new file in V7 is also Arial.

Its important they open matching position of V5, else I am faced with moving hundreds of dims about that touch, overlap, clash etc, and using Rhino is not about redoing ones work, I dont have the time to do that to my many ongoing projects. V7 was supposed to be an exciting step fwd, so far many weeks gone by and still resolving issues. 3 months and not operational yet. So close now to being able to open V5 into V7.
Never was aware of this, not seen anything about it.
I then must redo all my templates, make them 1:1 and alter auto to inside and other settings for fractions display etc.

Rhino V5 created dims diameters angles leaders styles pre Feb 2023.3dm (84.8 KB)
Rhino V5 created dims diameters angles leaders styles Model scale 1 values adjust to suit.3dm (74.3 KB)

Rhino V5 created dims etc Model scale 1 values adjust to suit opened in V7.3dm (141.1 KB)

also where is precision in V7 as v5 I had set to .0000 and in V7 the dimension gave .000

Cheers

Steve

[jeremy5 (Jeremy)]

@Steve1

Dont use the default Model Space Scale 1:10 that V7 comes with.

It doesn’t come with a 1:10 Model Space scale. For new documents it is getting that from your templates. For old documents it comes from the documents.

A clean installation of Rhino 7 has the Model Space Scale set to 1:1.

@Steve1

where is precision in V7

Look for Linear Resolution.

(And Angular Resolution for degree precision.)

@Steve1

what have I got not quite right in styles causing this ?

@Steve1

dims about that touch, overlap, clash etc

Please create or export an example of a string of dimensions where the slightly different positioning actually causes a problem, once from V5 and then from the V7 version and post them here for diagnosis.

.

[Steve1]

Hi,
understood.
As for examples where the different positioning causes problems, I am thinking forward to the time when I open a file and have clashes and have to mess about moving dims about again.
I want to avoid that scenario by simply altering settings that are causing the actual differences in my test piece.
If I am in layout mode and struggling for space for dims, to know the setting that lessens the arm length is good to know. I have spent time juggling things so moments like that I want to solve.
Just need to know why its further out, what did I get wrong., else when limited for space its going to be even worse next time.

Thus asking what are the settings causing it.

files were attached for such.

Then the future is rosy.

Just doing these tests is taking me hours. I have done nothing ‘creative’. not started again my projects screaming at me to be continued, for 3.5 months now win 10 build. Terrible situation.
I feared 3 months, hoped for 2 months and its never ending.
The fact that I have many projects where I may have positioned dims and diameters near each other just managing to avoid overlap, and I know I have done so over the years, havent we all, I just dont have the time to open them all up and go looking for clashes when in V7 as firstly I will have to make them 1:1 then spend even more time doing so.

I am somehow to make up for 3 months lost time. I already have eve meals at 1am, I just want to alter the settings that are causing the difference on red v7 with black V5.

I have supplied the files for each.
Make the red match the black, what settings cause the diferences.
Its all I need to know.

Why is the line for diameter much longer placing the dim where it shouldnt be placed, as I bet there will be clashes on that.
Where is the setting pushing that out farther, thats a good one to alter for starters.

Why are the text higher up from the dims line, what controls that gap, then I can put a smaller figure in.

Why is the text spacing a bit more, etc. what setting controls that. Arial has a preset spacing. Its a system font, comes with Windows. I am using the same font. Unless Msoft (who have caused me hell, now trying to work out how to see thumbs for .mpg and .mov files, latter from latest iphone ) have changed thefont properties for Arial since win7. thus causing massive headache for anyone doing magazine and text layouts !

To get the red and black matching, thats the goal the last minute one and raise the trophy., or are there more hidden horrors of v5 into v7 no one has said about ?

I desperately want to solve this as it shouldnt be happening, settings need tweaking, and get started again in my Rhino projects, well behind schedule now, serious problems arising.

refer to the files I had attached,

Steve

[jeremy5 (Jeremy)]

@Steve1

To get the red and black matching

I think that will be difficult. R7 is drawing dimensions differently from R5 and tweaking settings so that red and black are closer in one place may mean other aspects of the dimensions then go out. For example Text Gap controls how high the text is above the dim line, but it also controls how close leader text is to its line. To get both of these matching you need different values, which you can only get by having two styles, one for dim lines, the other for leaders.

Given that the positional differences are small, I’m not convinced that trying to get them exact is necessary, nor that it is worth the hassle involved.

[Steve1]

Hi,
Test 4.
It appears that V7 doesnt honour the values entered in Dimension styles.
I created a style from scratch, not one brought in by opening V5 but one to be there and allow V5 to appear without changes.
I entered the settings precisely matching those for the style in V5.

I open V5 file.
Text gap 0.3 becomes 0.3733
0.5 text gap becomes 0.6466

Next I create a new style in a V7 new file page and give it 0.5 text gap, and it gives 0.51

I then add to the style the alternate text bracket for the fraction and it then becomes 0.6466 thats almost a third more !

THIS IS NOT RIGHT.
V7 is ignoring the text gap constraint data.

V5 gave that gap the user entered …bang on…

This is a CAD prog normally honouring numbers entered., in V5 anyway.

[wim (Wim Dekeyser)]

Hi Steve -
I’m not finding the instructions I need to try to reproduce an issue in Rhino 7.
Any reference to Rhino 5 is completely irrelevant.
-wim

[Steve1]

best with new post !
Steve