SubD workflow and GUI, what is the logic?

Rhino SubD
,
1

I have done some modelling of different complex shapes in SubD and have waited for the GUI to become more mature, but it seems like nothing really is changing. So this is both a bit of a rant, but mainly a quest to understand your idea behind the workflow.

My experience is that it is counter intutive to locate the different tools. They feel scattered around on the top menu kind of like the ended up there because of the sequence they were implemented rather than because they make sense modellingwise.
image

In my experience the SubD backbone, the math behind it, is rock solid. (once the model is modelled correctly with out collapsed surfaces etc) But I have never become a fan of the TAB layout and very rarely use them at all. Manily becuase key features like drawing lines, copy, isolate, scale etc disappear and cause me to frequently move back and forth between the standard layout and the different tabs. (So instead I copy the stuff I need to a new toolbar
 but you all know that Rhino and toolbars have tons of posts on many threads here, so I won’t go into that). So that’s a quick background, feel free to correct me or come with advanced tips here, maybe I have missed somehting cruzial like jumping back and forth between last used tabs with a key stroke
)

So the main question is:
When modelling in SubD, how do you expect us to model efficiently when the core tools are on the SubD tab, but other core modelling tools like isolate, line, curve, copy array, scale1d.2d.3d etc are hidden?

IMO the core stuff that is needed in most modelling situations should never leave the GUI when the other tabs are activated. I think it is time you do a large inhouse SubD’a’thon and gather a lot of experience on how the workflow should be and not be.

This is my toolbar for SubD:
Used together with the Standard layout.
Divided into Modelling, Editing, Selecting:
(Easy to remember, easy to visually locate)

image
image126×460 29.6 KB

I bring this up now since you are working on the GUI for Rhino 9, and what better time to discuss changes than now? :wink:

4 Likes
subD Interface and Workflow, comparison with other applications
2

What I am testing out right now is hard surface modelling with SubD.

Why you say? Because a lot of hard surfaces ends up in complex intersections with the need of complex patching, so how can sketch moddeling a semi-organic boxy shape benefit from SubD? Is it faster than nurbs? Both to model and manipulate? Does it yeild better shape manipulations for early prototyping and ergonomic 3D print testing?

Is it better for production? No, I don’t think it ever will, but production is just the last stage of a process. And Rhino has always been a great asset for shaping consepts, evaluating and testing designs and be fast at it!

What I am studying right now is modelling a Sony A7 RIII:
And my little toolbar lets me work fast with out leaving the Standard toolbar layout.

I am still testing out Rhino 8 and here I am evaluating soft creasing at 100% etc on the hard edges and the verdict so far is that it works well for quick evaluations.

image
image1280×830 124 KB

3

loved that camera, but sold it along with the a7III to buy the r5. i am still thinking about getting it as a 2nd for casual running and gunning. well actually the AIII for a lower res 2nd camera, since the RIII did not have the option to reduce the resolution, like the RV now has :slight_smile:

sorry slightly off topic.

back to topic, i would never use SubD for something like that which obviously had Nurbs Modelling only.. its not even faster its just a nonsense detour.. IMHO.

4

And that’s why it is a study
 somethimes we learn something when walking outside the norm :wink: I’ll see how far I’ll go in a reasonable amount of time.
I have the good old A7 as a second camera for low res. Being able to shoot at different sizes would be good, but the RIII serves all my needs and then some, so I’m happy with it. That’s why I model it too, since I know it well and can look at it if I need more details.

1 Like
5

sure and modelling this with SubD is like walking on the Moon. Slow and gooey :wink: not a critique and i understand your challenge to improve.

i would argue some would use SubD in Blender C4D and whatnot because thats what they have and SubD is not about modelling faster at least not what its for by design, not even easier, its just a different approach. sometimes it fills gaps that are rather impossible for NURBS to model or so it seems at first.

its not about shunning either paradigm, its just that there is a strong overhype about SubD going on on Disco and it has been a little more than necessary.

as much as i love the Sony A7 series, i equally hate it because of its strong moiré effects even on the higher res cameras (due to the missing lowpass filter) which is quite challenging to remove. specifically when you do high res reproduction shots of paintings with the canvas texture being an issue suddenly or portrait shots with people having fine mesh clothing on with sudden rainbow artefacts :shaking_face:

6

None critique taken at all. 20 years of Nurbs modelling all kinds of stuff behind me, so thick skin there :wink: SubD has some amazing potential, but the current workflow does not lift it up to say the least. There are tools with far better and faster workflows out there, but that aside the hidden potential is in fine tuning a large concept by manipulating complex transitions on multiple parts simultanously (IF modelled with this in mind) just like you can manipulate a set of curves if their controlpoints are correctly placed.

This particular modelling test is about digging a bit deeper into visualizing fillets on a ultra-simple models, to achieve a visually complete model that can still be manipulated. Kind of like quickly skething 10 variants on paper, it doesn’t need to be perfect to be conseptually evaluated, but it can’t be too crude either. And there I think it has a benefit over Nurbs. I think we all know that you can only manipulate a Nurbs model thus far before it is faster and better to build a new model. (I usually built most model three times to prevent inherited bugs before I learned what caused the bugs and mostly navigated around them
 but we all still need a good patch every now and then :wink: )

7

I once considered myself a ‘power user’ of Tsplines, truth be told I got my first Rhino license specifically to get Tsplines - buying both on the same day.

It is awesome that McNeel has added SubD into Rhino to replace Tsplines after was absorbed into the Autodesk empire.

However I still consider myself at least twice as productive in Tsplines than SubD. A big part of that is lack of the Tsplines HUD:

hq720
hq720686×386 72.4 KB

Screenshot_20260201-072237
Screenshot_20260201-072237720×1612 109 KB

There is something efficient about being able to check thru the selection and drag modes that this provides, as opposed to the current SubD menu structure.

My own time is lacking these days and I’m now doing more Rhino plugin development than SubD surfacing work, BUT, I would love to build a SubD control UI based around the Tsplines HUD.

Cheers

DK

2 Likes
8

Hello,

Despite a few annoying flaws, one of the great strengths of this interface is the ability to move or copy buttons to temporary toolbars. I do this regularly, and I end up with a multitude of toolbars that I should clean up, but never do (except maybe once a month)


The most effective solution I’ve found since Rhino 6 is to reorganize the toolbars into two tabs. I’ve repeatedly asked the McNeel team to reinstate the ability to switch between tabs using the mouse wheel in the Rhino 8 interface, as it’s the only way I’ve found to quickly navigate between them.

For Rhino 6 and 7, it took me a day, but for Rhino 8, it was a real nightmare. It took me a week because of all the interface bugs at the beginning (I hope it will be simpler with Rhino 9). One thing is for sure: when I have to work on my clients’ Rhino installations using the standard interface, I’m completely lost


1 Like
9

I agree and would like to emphasize the importance of this. This problem affects not only Sub-D but all workflows. This is the reason why I don’t use TABs either.
“Show” and ‘Hide’ and “Zoom selected” together with “Select all” must always be there and must not disappear. The same applies to the scale, group etc.
Furthermore, in my opinion, the position of the tools that remain visible, such as join and explode, should not change in the different tabs.
And it is great that the Rhino user interface can be customized. But a good user interface also depends on the default settings working well for most users, so that not everyone has to constantly change everything.

10

I regularly work in different companies and I’m always surprised to see that almost all modelers using Rhino use the standard toolbars.

Personally, I quickly realized that the time spent switching between tabs or searching for commands in submenus was a considerable waste of time. When I explain this to them, they look at me with wide eyes


But rather than getting into yet another pointless discussion about the user interface’s shortcomings, and to answer the question about Holo’s Subd workflow, it’s better to focus on its strengths: customization. Admittedly, it takes a little time with each new version to reconfigure these toolbars, but once it’s done, it’s very pleasant.

Right here on this forum, I explained how tedious it is to constantly switch between perspective view, right view, and top view by clicking on tabs. I don’t remember who simply advised me to configure the pop-up window so I wouldn’t be bothered anymore, and it’s probably the simplest solution and the one I always use.

image
image281×119 10.7 KB

2 Likes
12

Big thanks to Holo for opening this thread!

Since it has strayed from the original topic and developed into a fundamental discussion about the usefulness and efficiency of subD modeling, I have started this new thread on the topic of subD interfaces.

2 Likes