SubD discussion

I have one beef with that approach. Each new Rhino version takes A LONG of time. Which is good when it comes to stability and polish, but bad when some crucial stuff in needed.
WIP versions are not a solution on a production system. I’ve tried working with one of the earlier V6 WIP releases. While I enjoyed some of the changes it simply couldn’t have been used as a daily driver - it was too unstable.

So when it comes to SubDs I’d take it as is (so far those turned to be rather stable on my end , even though I have thrown some dense meshes there) with a promise of extending those in one of V6 update patches. Just so we wouldn’t have to wait years for those.

As I said, the tools will continue to be available in the WIP going forward.
They will not be in the released versions until we think they are ready.

We have evolved into this style of open and public development over many years. It fits us and most of our customers pretty well. Is it perfect? Certainly not.
It takes a lot of time, skill, and effort to “make the magic”.

I’m sorry if this approach to software development rubs you the wrong way.

Ship V6 ASAP, then:

Sleep 7 hours a night
Eat catered lunch at your desk
Work Saturdays
Shower every other day (time wasted)
Have an intern do nothing other than brew espresso and keep everyone juiced

Yes, it’s that pressing…(just kidding…err sort of…)…:imp:

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don’t get me wrong John - as mentioned I appreciate your dedication to quality, stability and polish.
But as mentioned I simply think that with SubDs it will hurt you (I think those are needed asap). That’s all.
It’s based on what I see in my workshop. Heck, even I, no matter how much I prefer to do my modeling in Rhino and Modo, had to take a dab at Fusion360 as it allowed me to solve problems Rhino simply couldn’t.

That often? Tsk.

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So you’re saying that it’s OK if Rhino developers smell like wild rhinos?
I’m guessing that might be a hard sell with their spouses and families…

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I’ve seen a lot of cartoons of developers. I didn’t think they bathed at all. Am I misinformed?

Hi John,
That sounds fine to me, but I have a perfectly stable workflow with V5 and TSplines at the moment and I don’t want to lose that.
Can you clarify what the situation will be for those of us who need to keep V5 installed after upgrading to V6?
I got the impression that there might be license issues.

Cheers, Steve

Perhaps the current state of Sub-D as a “Lab Tool” which would be available to users of V6. https://wiki.mcneel.com/labs/home

@Steve_Howden
You will be under no obligation or requirement to upgrade to V6.
I suspect for many that keeping V5 going for T-Splines will be important.

Currently, in the V6 WIP, you have access to the early beginning development of what we hope will become solid SubD tools in Rhino.
When V6 is released, these tools will remain available in the WIP, but you will not have access to them unless you upgrade to V6 at that time.
Access to the WIP has always been predicated upon owning a current shipping license.

We’ve pretty much abandoned the “Labs tool” concept in favor of the WIP process we use now. Owners of a V6 license (when it ships), will have access to the WIP, just like owners of V5 currently have access to the WIP which is moving towards producing V6.

Hi John,
as you probably understand we are in need of a sub-d sollution for v6, no matter how hacky or poorly implemented, and the current state is MILES better than nothing. So PLEASE at least consider adding it as a hidden TEST command so a select few can continue using it in a production environment when that day comes. I hope you understand that V7 WIP will not be available to lots of customers as many companies have strict routines both for installing software AND for using unauthorized software in production.

In example:
I have a customer who is using Rhino as part of his service and he is relying on selling both Rhino and T-splines to his customers in order to get the jobs done. But now he is in a situation where moving forward requires that we either get something together for V6, or he has to follow T-splines to Fusion and start all over there, developing new tools and going through the development phase again. If we could rely on subdfrommesh in it’s current form then we (he and I) would be able to script a workflow that would let him continue within Rhino.

And that’s just one example.

So on my knees here I plead you to reconsider removing the current state from V6 when released. I am sure that letting us use it in V6 would also give good input for the V7 development down the road.

-J

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This is a very valid point.

If sub-d is only available in V7-wip it’s a waste of potential. I shunned the V6 WIP for quite a while because of it’s early hickups. Even recently when the annotation got it’s overhaul I was caught in a situation I rather not be in again.

So a lab-version of sub-d is IMO a best solution to unlock that functionality for V6 users. It allows for testing and using that new wip features on a stable and official platform.

I realise it’s not at all straightforward from the developer point of view. But leaving it so far out of reach for so many users might be not all that wise.

-Willem

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the coffee they brew at mcneel is pretty good iirc.
so keeping well caffeinated is already happening there.

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Having subd as a test command in V6 makes little sense as the only time users would get updates is with service releases for V6 which are targeted at fixing issues, not new features. With the wip, users get updates roughly each week if the tool is in active development.

I think it’ll make a lot of sense having it as a plug in, best of both worlds. If you don’t want to use it you just don’t install it ,and if you want, you can download and update it as soon as there is a new build.

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let me rewrite your valid observations Luis, I’m adding some bold intersections for consideration here:

Having subd as a test command in V6 makes a little more sense as the only time the entire global users would get **acces to a powerful feature and be motivated to upgrade since ** updates is with service releases for V6 which are artificially targeted at fixing issues, not new features. With the wip, only a handful of early adopters who are not representative of typical customers’ user needs’ users get updates roughly each week if the tool is in active development.
[/quote]

I get regular update notifications for a plugin called Iris. :wink:

@John_Brock
Thanks John.
I have always updated as new versions come out and fully intend to again with V6.

However my question relates to having V6 and V5 installed on my computer at the same time.
I want to be able to use V6 and participate in the WIP testing, but also have access to my V5 and Tsplines installation.

Will this be possible?

Thanks, Steve

Yes.
I think there will be a lot of users in that boat.
Some will upgrade to V6 and keep using V5 and T-Splines as you have described.
Others will skip the V6 upgrade altogether.

It up to us to provide tools that our users want.
In this case, T-Splines was swallowed by Autodesk and that has left T-Splines users in a bind. This is not the first time this has happened and probably won’t be the last.

Now that Carl Bass has been shoved aside at Autodesk and replaced with a business guy, I suspect Autodesk will become more focused on shareholder return and less on how well their tools work.

Time will tell.

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