Rodent survey - what precise mouse for Rhino are you using?

Rhino Rhino for Windows
21

Hi, Halo, I tried a trackball many yrs ago when sent one by Msoft, couldnt get on with it at all, it operated with the thumb, and my dexterity is in my hand and fingers, my thumb in fact seems to be getting a bit of an aching joint so best avoid thumb usage for precision, if thats arthritis its the first sign of it in me.

Holo,
That replacement now sees buttons exactly where I hold a mouse with thumb, yours was ok. I prefer a smooth comfortable surface under the thumb, not buttons.
I need wrist on gel rest, …for since the advent of PC’s I simply like to move the mouse cursor around the screen with great accuracy, pixel precision, in one rotation of the wrist without having to struggle towards the end of the twist and without having to lift and replace mouse on mat DURING a move as that loses control, if you are drawing and do that it is impossible to avoid a kink or worse. I cant see how users can like to move something across screen and have to lift and reposition mouse whilst still trying to hold down the mouse button during the move. I have always had a simple mouse that does that. I have it set to 10/10 and accel high and can perform pixel accurate work. I knew others in the past that did the same. I stockpiled my simple mouse to be able to do so and Logitech have discontinued the driver under win7 so killing them all.

Anyone using a Logitech G100S ? Logitech say that should give precision and no need to resite mouse during full screen width move.

Steve

22

You know there are several other manufactureres of trackballs?..

Anyway, from what I gather in this thread, you seem to

  1. hardly move your wrist at all
  2. move your mouse so slow that mouse ballistics don’t come into play
  3. barely touch your mouse but with your fingertips.

Based on that and omitting the option of a centered trackball, I would reccommend an optical notebook mouse (best wireless), because:
a) they don’t get any smaller.
b) they don’t get any more lightweight
c) they only have the minimum amount of buttons
d) you can ignore ergonomics
e) you will not have to worry about cable stiffness
f) dpi with current sensors really is no matter if you move the mouse slow enough (My unaccelerated mouse (windows default settings) is able to travel across my full HD screen while moving it between my fingers and not moving my wrist. (might be more than 60mm but…))

Then again, I fail to see what you would need all that precision for. Maybe it’s my workflow… For precise positioning, I use numerical input or snaps. Everything else, like scribble or free drawn curves will either end up with unuably high CP counts or are smoothed out rather arbitrarily by Rhino and that’s nowehere precise. And since Rhino doesn’t know pixels, pixel precision seems to be a rather odd requirement here. Whaterver mouse you have, you would sooner or later be required to reposition it. I rather doubt, you’d be able to accelerate your mouse exactly the same way in all directions to compensate for mouse ballistics and never hit the screen border.

23

Hi Halo,
1 2 and 3 are correct .

what in fact do you get for f).

60mm for me is important as having gone to a 1920px monitor resolution the downside was I had to perform extra wrist twist, I am at my careful cursor control limit at 60mm, used to have 40mm, drawing in Pshop starts to go ropey after that ! (tablet and pen…NO…cant use with gel wrist rest and no space anyway)

I am not just a Rhino user, using the actual program to sort out inaccuracies caused by mouse as you suggest, I dont have inaccuracies, I use Photoshop and can do all sorts of careful drawing moves with the mouse I have. In it I work to pixel precision. Its also a term I use to mean precise. Pshop units are pixels. I do loads of careful edge selections and the cursor accuracy is important. I also use Freehand vector prog (far less than I used to). I also do video editing and sound editing. Photoshop doesnt have programs to even out errors, but I dont make them with the mouse I have anyway.

I am not looking for a mouse having just invented a set of criteria, I already have a mouse that performs very accurate and enables me to work without having to lift and place a mouse whilst making a drawing move or dragging an object.
Others may like to try and lift a mouse whilst pushing down on the mouse button but I find that counter-action, push and pull at same time.

I have had comfortable mouse does screen in 40mm now 60mm of mat and also precise smooth cursor action since Win3.1 and just need another for win7.

Whaterver mouse you have, you would sooner or later be required to reposition it.

I am only on about not having to lift and place mouse DURING a move. Fully agree. I reposition it outside of that every so often, though probably no where near as many times as the mouse slappers who use default motion speed 5/10 and a standard mouse, Msoft word and the internet and thats all they use.

Logitech G100s seems a contender, anyone use one of those, shame the VX Nano laser is discontinued. Thumb area now has buttons on it. As long as the new thumb rest is reachable with gel rest without moving fingers backwards to allow so, all is still good.

Steve

24

Just saying, you probably don’t need a high-end 8400dpi gaming monster.
Theoretically 870dpi would suffice to detect 1980 individual steps over 60mm. While that comparison isn’t entirely true, it gives a rough estimation of how precisely you can position a mouse. Current consumer mouses have about 1000dpi, which should be entirely sufficient. More dpi and higher frame rates are only necessary, if you need fast and precise positioning.

Just saying, that Rhino isn’t exactly photoshop and this entire thread would be of more helpful in a forum of people actually requiring pixel precision… :wink:

Yeah, well with 16 or 256 multicolor modes, color palettes where much easier to navigate too… I have the feeling, you are bitching about having to use a ladder to paint facade while you only needed your paint brush when you were painting fences. Larger area screen area means either longer travel or finer movements.

Generally I’m not the one to judge since I use touch, mouse and keyboard. so my hands are constantly shifting anyway…

For what it’s worth, you might try a touchpad. I found that hard work with on a daily basis for ergonomic reasons, but you can move the mouse pointer from one side of the screen to the other without lifting more than your index finger (or whatever other finger you prefer). by carefully applying pressure to the finger tip, you can position the pointer with sub pixel precision, if you want…

25

Hi Halo,
what mouse have you and what do you get for f ?

I would like to know.

With all the data and suggestions flying around, I am just seeking another two button scroll wheel mouse that in settings can enable me to go across screen within 60mm mousemat and be able to draw a smooth line diagonally down screen without cursor zig zagging its way drawing a set of stairs as opposed to a line. Fair enough request someone said. All mice in win98 days managed it, then came win2K and most failed.

Current consumer mouses have about 1000dpi, which should be entirely sufficient.

Most mice will require the motion slider set higher to manage the mousemat distance during a 5sec move across screen (5sec = sensible draw speed), but try drawing a line with it in Msoft paint or Pshop pencil set to 1 pixel. Those tried in PC shops last time I had to find another rodent draw stairs, cursor jiggling about. I eventually found one and bought 6 of them. PC shop today said he knew exactly the problem, dpi wont solve it he said. Rings a bell I thought,

as you said…

More dpi and higher frame rates are only necessary, if you need fast and precise positioning.

secret is in driver and mouse design. Mine shines a red light onto mat, has a cable, uses a Logitech driver (Msoft driver gives the jaggies) and does the job. Why it does whilst others failed I dont know. Maybe Logitech might now.

I am seeking the G100s as a start and progressing through those suggested here.

Anyone else out there with a 115mm long mouse able to draw smooth 1 pixel lines after setting mouse to 9/10 or 10/10 ? Trouble is if you are not used to that speed you wont manage it anyway !

Steve

26

Logitech G300 corded. A bit small in the hand but cheap and has a cord. If I can find a big MS corded locally I will get that next time. I cannot stand cordless.

27

High DPI is really not necessary as other factors will affect accuracy much more drastically. You’ll have better accuracy by getting used to using a lower sensitivity and by using the mouse over a clean homogeneous surface. I prefer a cloth mousepad with some friction, but you can also go for a hard surface for less friction. The important thing is to keep the mouse feet and mousepad clean. Some mice update at the default USB rate of 125hz, you can increase it to 500hz or 1000hz for better response. Also you can use registry tweaks to remove mouse acceleration as much as possible.
I use a WMO 1.1a (400 DPI) mouse and a Steelseries QcK mousepad.

28

I use a Logitech M500. Like Ncik above, I prefer a corded mouse and this one is cheap and lasts quite a while with good precision and nice clicking. Don’t have to worry about batteries, charging, or jumpy wireless connections, and it has a long enough cord - just need to clean the feet occasionally. I don’t even need to use a mousepad, just on the desk with a wrist support. I use pointer speed of two ticks down from fastest with enhance pointer precision to navigate 2 side-by-side 2560 pixel wide monitors.

29

I am a backer of http://www.mycestro.com/ and still waiting for shipment but I have my hopes up for this to be a great tool in CAD… Maybe I hope for to much but I really like the look of it!
I will come back for some update info on how it behaves when I have tested it!
Per

1 Like
30

My mouse is a MS Bluetooth Notebook Mouse 5000. I bought it to complement may mobile touchscreen notebook. That’s 1000dpi in a 91.8x56.7mm device. I went for Bluetooth in order not to block one of my valuable USB ports. I wouldn’t recommend that exact mouse, though. Despite what the MS online help says, this specific device is not recognized by the input device center, so the extra button is not configurable. (That’s a real shame, since I used to make that thumb-button the third button. I don’t understand how people actually work with the Mouse-Wheel as a third button without constantly scrolling the wheel.)

With default mouse acceleration settings, the cursor travels the full with of my 1900x1080 screen when I slowly move the the device about it’s width. (that is about 60mm)

Could you post an image demonstrating your smooth vs. a jagged diagonal lines?
I’m not an expert in handling a mouse but found that the jaggedness of the lines I drew (even with the help of a ruler ;)) mostly depended on my expertise and the friction of the mouse vs. the table/ruler. So to me a good pad/feet combination with little and constant friction would seem more important than dpi.

31

Hi,
Thanks for the suggestions.
Mousing surface and feet are perfect, Scotch WR511 mousemat is THE mat for glide and precision. made of very small pyramids so minimal contact :slight_smile:
The steppiness occurs when with the mice I have tested in the past, under 32bit, one increases motion slider speed from the middle default setting, the higher the setting, the more jagged the mouse.

Image attached of the difference Msoft driver makes. Red is showing in effect the default 5/10 setting (this was 10/10 accel high with enhance pointer precision ticked, which dumbs it down to 5/10 and makes it need too much mouse mat to reach across the screen)

This quality of line though is what 10/10 accel high gives in 32 bit. My mouse is fast and smooth under XP 32bit with Logitech driver. take the driver away under 64bit and steppy mode occurs, proof its not the mat etc, I know anyway it works fine normally.

Black is what happens when enhance pointer precision is unticked.

Black also is what I got with many mice tested when win2K hit the shops, tested in PC shops, maybe they were using Msoft drivers, I seem to recall though it was the dedicated driver. That black line for some had steps several pixels wide !!

I happened to see a mouse using Logitech Mouseware driver which gave smooth action at all speeds and have used that mouse ever since. It needs Logitech drivers to perform, and they dont have 64bit versions so hence a new mousehunt for 64bit.
Lines drawn in MSpaint by the way, 1 pixel pencil tool.

Steve

32

I use a Logiteh G700 Gaming mouse. It’s fast comfortable, high rates switches, replaceable pads, and…
The buttons are macro programmable, for such things as:
_move
_Scale1d
_rotate

…and there are still 4 more programmable buttons left.

33

That’s probably because the red line was drawn using a lower sensitivity (you need to move the mouse more distance to draw the same line). “Enhanced pointer precision” is just mouse acceleration, which I recommend to have always off.

The only advantage I see of using drivers is that some allow to increase polling rate, this is mainly useful because a higher polling rate will increase the amount of speed you can move the mouse without the sensor skipping tracking.
The drivers could also enable mouse prediction and angle snapping, which you don’t want since the mouse won’t really follow accurately your hand movement.

34

Okay so I tried your test with my mouse in MSPaint and Photoshop. While I see lots of tiny steps in Paint, there is almonst none with PS. So obviously Paint uses a different algorithm to fill in sudden mouse jumps of more than one pixel.

Mouse acceleration basically just scales the Mouse grid. So if you get 2px steps in a 10/10 setting, you will get smaller steps in 5/10 setting. Trade off is that you have to travel longer distances.

Now whatever the driver does, the real movement detection takes place on the chip inside your mouse. Optical mice take snapshots of the mat and compare them with the last. The similarity is used to calculate deltas of the movement. You may notice, that the stepping gets worse with worse surfaces.

While certainly possible, I doubt that the Logitech Mouse driver would somehow set your hardware to a different, higher precision mode. If so, that would be bad design by Logitech. So all the driver can do is interpolate the jumps the mouse sensor really makes. If you see steps now, they were present before, just masked by the driver.

Higher polling rate would make sure, you get a finer steps in fast movements as you might otherwise miss some intermediate mouse position. Since your mouse moves slow, polling rate is not an issue here.
Higher dpi might enable the mouse to find finer details in your mat. Since the mouse and the sensor didn’t change, I can’t see how dpi is the issue here. Even with a higher dpi mouse, it’s possible that the optical grain your mat is the limiting factor causing the jumps.

35

When I tested the mice in the PC shop I seem to recall taking along my mouse mat (it has a rigid base) as a decent surface but I laid white copier paper on it to trace around mouse edge with a pen before and after a move. No grain.
I am using my mouse in 32bit with the mat as intended and can draw perfect thin smooth lines, the mat surface is designed for optimum mousing, believe you me the steppiness is Msoft and not the mat.
The steps are not MSoft Paint messing things up, I see the cursor making those steps in the mice tested just moving them diagonally across the screen in any prog or across the desktop.
I simply use MSoft paint to capture what I see beforehand on screen. It was just as steppy in Pshop.

That’s probably because the red line was drawn using a lower sensitivity
(you need to move the mouse more distance to draw the same line).
“Enhanced pointer precision” is just mouse acceleration, which I
recommend to have always off.

Exactly…for 64bit, it was with enhance pointer precision ON and speed 10/10 and what that tick does is overide the motion setting and make it 5/10 requiring more mat to draw with.
As you say turn off enhance pointer precision but from mice tested as you increase the motion speed slider one needs less mouse mat to move cursor but the jaggies get worse. This may have been because the mouse was using an Msoft driver. I have notes I will study and check.

Can anyone with a short 115mm mouse move cursor the screen width during 5 secs in 60mm of mat or less and then see that their cursor moves smoothly when moved diagonally across screen ? Then also draw a smooth diagonal line in MSpaint ? I currently can do that with my Logitech driver and mouse in 32bit XP. I just need that ability in win7 64bit.

To know someone has such a mouse and can do that is what I seek.

Steve

36

I always check this site called thewirecutter for reviews before I buy any hardware. I have been using them for a couple years and typically end up getting what they recommend over 95% of the time. They basically review every other website, retailer, interview experts, then do their own testing. Then, they pick ONE SINGLE PRODUCT for you to get. It’s pretty awesome.

My current favorite mouse, as recommended by wirecutter, is the Razor DeathAdder. It is corded, but that is by preference. After 10 or 12 hours of work, a cordless mouse gives me cramps due to the extra battery weight. The wired mouse is large, easy to grip, and light. A perfect combo.

37

I am Using Logitech G602

38

And the DeathAdder comes in a lefty-version too, which is what I use - best left-hand mouse ever, cheap(ish), sturdy, precise… and you can turn the lights off, if you need to go stealth :wink:

-Jakob

39

I’m still using the MX. On my third but it is no longer made. THere was a plugin called ‘UberSettings’ for Rhino that let you program the extra buttons any way you wanted but I don’t bother with that anymore. If you want to get really crazy with your mouse you should look into the Uber.

http://uberoptions.net/

40

I´m really curious (and concerned about the ergonomics of your workspace) to why you have so little work space.
BTW I have a Logitech G502 that I bought on a whim. After 5 months I wouldn´t replace it for anything else, not even my old trusted wacom.