Rebel Moon (A case study)

Something I always found important is inspiring the next generation. I have a very fortunate position, in that 3D is really my hobby (though it has helped me tremendously as an engineer, being able to do Solidworks and such with relative ease).

I always find the history of design very important. I still even now look at so many things from the great designers, particularly automotive, and I come away in the knowledge that someone really cared, for example, about the Ferraris of the past.

Moving to my more known subject, I absolutely love looking at the work of John Eaves, Andrew Probert, et al. I love the learning process and understanding how these people’s minds work, as I consider it important.

I think much of this AI does look qualitatively good for a few seconds. But I also feel it is a soulless meta-analytical result, which merely aggregates everyone else’s designs. Modern AI render systems seem to work much better, but it’s not for me.

It’s going to come down to personal taste, and I know I will get left behind. I just want to see images where it is self-evident that someone really cared about the outcome. I really want to see people’s work, and I even want to feel envy. I love the back stories and the process, the thought that went into the design. I recently saw a digital book (sadly removed!) by David Blass for Star Trek: Picard, and I got the feeling I always do that… ā€œI wish I could even get closeā€.

AI never gives me any of that, because ultimately, I just am not convinced that the… designer… had any particular care whatsoever for the result. I don’t see why I would want to dedicate my mind to caring for a design that was basically aggregated by webscraped OpenAI data, and a bunch of RTX A6000s on a server.

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Good point, I have given my puny propellors some further thought, these should suffice.

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Its too polished and has color. A true napkin sketch would be a leaking ball point pen on a used coffee shop napkin with the coffee stain. Crudely drawn .

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SO WHAT *IS* DESIGN, REALLY?

(Philosophy warning!)

I’m here onto both the graphical AND the non-graphical design aspect here (with the graphical aspect added as part of, or an add-on, to the intended functionality of design)

The essence of design is actually a big question out there which not many has thought through.

As I see it the first aspect of design is the Intent. Why? For what, how specific, how loosely should the end result meet the original intent (in the mind of the designer). This is an aspect that is shared between the ā€œfunctionalā€ and ā€œgraphicalā€ designer.

Relating this to AI, you prompt your INTENT. But, what you get back is heavily based on similarities of what others has already designed. At least in the graphical aspect. But what about the functionality, can AI discern the HIDDEN aspects of functionality and performance parameters, and reflect that in a mechanical design? Well, to some extent, but how far? (Example: The amphibious vehicle with typical boat-shape, propellers for flight and wheels for a ground vehicle). But other than that? What ground inclination can the vehicle master? How deep pot holes, at what speed, can it absorb while maintaining… what parameters? And so on. The invisible performance parameters.

Now we are into more intricate aspects of design which is more and more distant from it’s ā€œvisual shape or formā€, while we’re still talking intent. The design’s intended performance parameters.

Which gets us to a different aspect of what a designer will be confronted with:

Compromises between ā€œLooksā€, Functionality, Manufacturability, final Cost etc. So far we have mentioned:

  1. Intent
  2. Looks (Graphical design)
  3. Functionality
  4. Manufacturability
  5. Cost

Only one of these parameters are directly ā€œvisibleā€, although to some extent derivable from textual specifications, but - how far can an AI produce a realistic connection between specifications and such specifications? (apart from part solutions or guiding directions etc)

But back to Design. Look at the (short) list 1 to 5. Which part is ā€œpure Designā€ (intent) and what is other kinds of expertise in engineering, production methods (where your intent doesn’t really matter, where only available methods and techniques are your constraints, and here’s where the long list ā€œcompromisesā€ (limitations) will affect the overall design.

In my perception, the core concept of Design is the intent-part, and then subsequent steps in realizing a design is a ping-pong activity between staying true to the original intent (design) while in the ping-pong process try to adapt the shape, form, technique, mechanical solutions, material selections … (the list goes on and on) to achieve the original intent (design).

Design is intent. And intent is foreknowledge (of usefulness, desired performance, visual impression, payback as in profitability etc., etc.)

Foreknowledge (inherent in intent) is the ā€œsecret wordā€ I most of all wanted bring up in relation to Design.

The second most important aspects are the numerous other activities and skills it takes to realize/implement and intended design (engineering, adaptation to available methods, materials aso, aso) which isn’t actually the ā€œcore essence of designā€ although definitely causing a number of subsequent activities related to implementing any form of design, mechanical or graphical.

Sorry if I’m wearing you out…

But if I understood it right, ā€œUn-f*cking designā€ is just that - fixing all the subsequent aspects of an original intent/design which requires so many additional fields of knowledge and experience than only the intent (grahical or not).

//Rolf

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Clarification:

With ā€œForeknowledgeā€ I explicitly mean ā€œthat which you imagine in your mind before it exists in the material worldā€.

The concept of foreknowledge applies to the arts, graphical, mechanical design, speech, or whatever.

I also realize that the skills required in graphical design entails so many aspects other than just stacking different shapes and forms and colors together. It has it’s own ā€œrulesā€ like proportions, and that a (graphical) design must also give some impression of being ā€œbelievableā€ (as in, ā€œcapable of indicated functionā€, reasonable structural integrity, or even to some extent whether it would be possible to manufacture aso).

//Rolf

I just liked the the term ā€œun-f*cking the designā€ .

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should be a new term used in the cad industry hell im stealing that if i ever go pro someday :joy:

Next time I’m in front of the client, while they’re talking I’ll just be thinking about how much I want the day to be over so I can hit the pub for a beer and some pizza. I won’t have listened to a single word they said, but to look super engaged, I’ll just drop a confident: ā€œI’m un-f*cking the design.ā€ :rofl:

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WOW! what amazing skills you have. I stumbled upon this site after looking at a scanner called Metro Y that led me down a path searching for software like ExactFlat and other software from Mirisys. I am an automotive upholstery technician looking into 3d rendering for presentations and automation.

I want you to know that your work is excellent, and I really hope Netflix or whoever, gives you the green light on continuing the Rebel Moon films. Best of luck to you and your dreams, have a great day!

Very kind of you to say, thank you. Im sorry to say that there will be no more Rebel Moon films. They were a huge failure for the studio and all future projects were cancelled. It was a fun project to work on but sadly they were quite awful films.

Let’s be honest here

Scott Schneider carried that whole movie with his Amazing models

The writers need to step up!

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:rofl: Oh how I wish I could claim that. A lot of very talented people poured their hearts into the making of those films. I was one very small part of it. But I do appreciate the compliment.

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Hello @FilmDesigner @Lee_Rosario

I greatly appreciated your comments on all these questions relating to the transformation brought about by AI.

Your work is in the creative phase of the production process, while mine involves prototyping and modeling. Although my job is no longer really relevant in the film industry, many sectors still depend on this workflow: design → prototype → production.

I’ve witnessed three technological revolutions, and each time, I heard the same thing: ā€œIt’s going to steal our jobs!ā€ First, there was the digital revolution: before the 2000s, very few workshops were equipped with laser cutters; I even saw the arrival of CNC machines. Today, it’s rare to find a workshop without a laser cutter. Then, in the field of architecture, there was the BIM (Building Information Modeling) format. This 3D format, combined with CNC manufacturing tools, led some clients to believe that preparing files for prototyping was no longer necessary. Then came 3D printing, which became widespread (around 2010, I think): we had already been using it for about ten years, but again, whether among clients or even some colleagues, some thought that since the client provided us with 3D elements and we owned a 3D printer, we would be nothing more than ā€œbutton pushers.ā€

Like you, and once again, I wonder how my sector will be transformed by the arrival of this new technology, but I am much more pessimistic: I don’t think it will profoundly change our working methods. There will be a phase where, indeed, some (rare) jobs will probably disappear. I think the voice acting profession will likely face the same challenges as video rental stores faced with Netflix, phone booths with smartphones, or scribes with the printing press. History shows that some jobs disappear, and these are often isolated and localized jobs.

I believe, as with other technological revolutions, that our tools—whether design, modeling, or manufacturing tools—will evolve. But I don’t think our working methods will fundamentally change.

Let’s take the example of my internship in the design department of a car manufacturer: the design team will continue to produce visuals of the vehicle, they will continue to display them on a wall so that a few decision-makers can select the design to prototype. They will then continue to refine it, use this prototype for wind tunnel testing, crash test simulations, and engineering and mechanical studies, whether each step of this process is assisted by AI or not.
In reality, I think that any company offering product design studies will always seek to bring its artistic touch and vision to the process.

If I had to imagine the worst-case scenario (for the field of artistic creation in the film industry), I envision a large production studio creating specific artificial intelligences for each film, incorporating the theme, visual style, characters, their behaviors, and even the atmosphere and music. One might then imagine that, thanks to these AIs, they could handle all the artistic development of their new productions. Yes, but here’s the catch: it’s a vicious cycle, because an AI needs high-quality data to be trained (or refined). Therefore, I think there will always be this large wall displaying all the artistic proposals created by humans (regardless of the tools used by these creatives), and people standing in front of this wall deciding on the artistic direction to take to train their ā€œsuper AI.ā€ From there, they will likely use it to create storyboards, evaluate scene concepts, and continue this assisted phase of reflection and iteration to select and refine the best proposals. And I am convinced that this step will not be entirely automated by AI, as it will constitute the studio’s stylistic signature.

For several years now, and well before the advent of artificial intelligence, some clients have been trying to avoid the creative work. It regularly happens that a project manager or marketing director sends us a scribble on a scrap of paper, or a terrible 3D model created with SketchUp, to design the future exhibition stand. They can get away with it because these are not ā€œriskyā€ projects, like the development of a product with a production run of several thousand, or even millions of units.
Let’s take a concrete example: when Chanel wants to organize a trade show, the brand doesn’t necessarily call on a team of designers; however, for the creation of a new bottle, it uses its usual iterative creative process.

In short, as always, some jobs will be severely impacted, but I remain convinced that few jobs will disappear because of AI and that our working methods will endure, even if our tools evolve. In any case, if I have a powerful new tool, my competitor has it too.; therefore, there will always be a need for the human touch…

And in my field, it will be exactly as you said:

Clients will send me 3D files generated by artificial intelligence, thinking, as with BIM and 3D printing, that they’ve found the miracle solution. It will take them a few years to realize that it’s simply another medium.

And also, I experience the exact same thing as you:

Every time I’ve tried to reuse a client file as a working basis to produce the files needed for manufacturing, it’s been a disaster. In the end, whatever type of file I’m sent— (a SketchUp, Catia/SolidWorks, or 3DS Max file) they’re just layer files on which I have to redraw the entire project with my constraints. And every time I didn’t, I found myself in complicated situations that made me think, ā€œWhy didn’t I just start from scratch?ā€

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…Your Honor, the bridge collapse is not our fault. The AI ​​performed the structural resistance calculations…

Wow, your work is incredible. I originally found your posts while searching the forums for information on using rhino to create assets for Unreal Engine in a game development pipeline. I saw that majority of your work is modeled in rhino and then fabricated in real life, but sometimes they also get used in VFX?

For a bit of context: My wife and I have been building a game where many of the assets correlate to objects we’ve made in real life for our brand. I’ve been using rhino for a little over 2 years, along with a lot of Z Brush. I do product/accessory design, and my wife does animation/character design.

I have learned blender in the past, but only for a couple months. I was hoping I could get away with using Rhino to make the larger assets for the game (like buildings/structures, machinery, vehicles, etc.). I assume I will have to do some optimization in another software I just can’t find much information on this rather niche pipeline.

If you have any thoughts/advice or could point me in the right direction towards how one might approach converting/optimizing Rhino models for VFX or games, I’d really appreciate it. And apologies for the long message, thank you again for sharing your work. It’s truly inspiring.

Hi Jared,

Thank you for your question .

Let me start by saying I have no real knowledge of game development. What little i do know is that simpler is better when it comes to how smoothly a game will function.

Im not really sure how to best answer your question. I suppose you could model in nurbs and then export as a mesh or use either quadremesher or shrinkwrap to give you a mesh. The downside is im not sure how easy it will be to texture it. In most cases for VFX my models are used as a guide and is remodeled in order for it to work in their pipeline for uv mapping, texturing and rigging. If the model is not complex then i will export as a mesh as low a poly count possible without sacrificing detail. Ultimately the best workflow for game assets is modeling as a mesh.
Not sure if that really answers your question but perhaps there is someone in the forum who can give you a better answer.

S

There is the datasmith plugin for unreal.

https://www.unrealengine.com/en-US/plugins/rhino

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Thank you for the quick reply!

The models I currently have in the Unreal project have been brought in through Datasmith (the import process has been surprisingly smooth) but most of the resources I’ve found focus on architectural visualization rather than game assets. I’ve only imported a relatively small set of buildings and props so far, so it’s hard for me to judge how this approach will scale as the project grows or how it might affect performance.

Because I’m still quite early in learning Unreal, I think the best course of action is to transition to Blender for the remainder of the assets. If performance becomes an issue with the Rhino models I’ve already made then I’ll rebuild them in Blender using the Rhino model as a guide, similar to the VFX workflow you described.

Thank you again for sharing your insight, it is much appreciated

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Absolutely Phenomenal work Scott. Schmicko geometry!

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