# Issues with Pachyderm - looking for a tutorial

**URL:** <https://discourse.mcneel.com/t/issues-with-pachyderm-looking-for-a-tutorial/49809>\
**Category:** Pachyderm\
**Created:** [November 21, 2017, 10:17pm UTC](https://discourse.mcneel.com/t/issues-with-pachyderm-looking-for-a-tutorial/49809 "2017-11-21T22:17:03Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 1

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**Author:** ![dem.art](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/mcneel/user_avatar/discourse.mcneel.com/dem.art/32/184208_2.png) [@dem.art](https://discourse.mcneel.com/u/dem.art)\
**Post date:** [November 21, 2017, 10:17pm UTC](https://discourse.mcneel.com/t/issues-with-pachyderm-looking-for-a-tutorial/49809/1 "2017-11-21T22:17:03Z")

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Good morning everyone. I’m trying to simulate the acoustic performances of an environment using Pachyderm, both in Rhino and in Grasshopper, but I am not able to find any tutorial about it.  
I wrote to Arthur, the man behind Pachyderm, who has been so kind to share with me a couple of GH definitions (one for the study of the sound reflection, the other one to evaluate the acoustic comfort in different points inside a room), but when it comes to modify them according to my needs, I’m lost!

 ![DEF](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/mcneel/uploads/default/original/3X/f/3/f35fb4631ecc2ac7672228be21fed1ff5ae8beb1.jpg)

The green element is the pavillon which has inside the sound source (linked to a point), the big red volume around the pavillon is an arena, and both of those elements are linked into the “_Grasshopper Geometry_” inside the **Polygon Scene** element.  
This is the first problem, because the Polygon scene asks me also for the _Rhino Geometry_, which wasn’t asked into the Arthur’s example. In addition, I don’t know where to take it, because if I draw a geometry on the canvas and I relate it to multiple elements and/or I internalize it, it becomes a _Grasshopper Geometry_.

Also, I don’t understand why, when I try to link a surface to the _Surface_ input of **Divide Surface** , it tell me “Data conversion failed from Brep to Surface”.

Any suggestion? I cannot find any tutorials for this kind of modeling, does anybody have some to share?

I also have troubles with the Pachyderm simulation in Rhino. Once I bake the pavillon and the arena and I set them in meters, then I insert the sound source and the sound receiver, then I assign proper materials to each object in the scene, the results from simulation looks weird to me:

 ![test2](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/mcneel/uploads/default/original/3X/2/4/243fbd56297b21d03c4bbe8ebc682904da6ace22.jpg)  
 ![test3](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/mcneel/uploads/default/original/3X/6/6/665cc7ddf635d710bd88263fd7f26b1f3846024c.jpg)

In both cases, the sound source is a geodesic speaker which emits 200W, and the microphone is placed at 50 meters.  
More than 150dB?  
And the result doesn’t change between the first and the second simulation, but in the first, around the sound source is placed the acoustic pavillon that schould amplify the sound, while in the second one, the speaker is simply placed in the middle of the arena.  
I followed step by step the tutorial of Pachyderm for Rhino that you can find on the Pachyderm website.

Thanks!!!

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**Author:** ![piac](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/mcneel/user_avatar/discourse.mcneel.com/piac/32/673006_2.png) [@piac](https://discourse.mcneel.com/u/piac)\
**Post date:** [November 24, 2017, 5:04pm UTC](https://discourse.mcneel.com/t/issues-with-pachyderm-looking-for-a-tutorial/49809/2 "2017-11-24T17:04:13Z")

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I think @Arthur is the man knowing more about this subject.  
You can also still post questions in the Pachyderm group: [http://www.grasshopper3d.com/group/pachyderm](http://www.grasshopper3d.com/group/pachyderm)

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**Author:** ![Arthur](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/mcneel/user_avatar/discourse.mcneel.com/arthur/32/490814_2.png) [@Arthur](https://discourse.mcneel.com/u/Arthur)\
**Post date:** [November 24, 2017, 6:50pm UTC](https://discourse.mcneel.com/t/issues-with-pachyderm-looking-for-a-tutorial/49809/3 "2017-11-24T18:50:39Z")

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Thank you for letting me know about this, Guilio.

Arthur

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**Author:** ![Arthur](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/mcneel/user_avatar/discourse.mcneel.com/arthur/32/490814_2.png) [@Arthur](https://discourse.mcneel.com/u/Arthur)\
**Post date:** [November 24, 2017, 7:05pm UTC](https://discourse.mcneel.com/t/issues-with-pachyderm-looking-for-a-tutorial/49809/4 "2017-11-24T19:05:57Z")

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Hi,

First off, there are some old instructions on the website ([http://www.perspectivesketch.com](http://www.perspectivesketch.com)) which I suggest you look at if you haven;t. Video tutorials are in progress right now, thanks to a generous user.

So the scene components have 4 inputs. The first (RG) is a boolean. You set it to true to have it grab all visible, baked surface/brep geometry from the Rhino model, or false to ignore the Rhinoceros geometry. The next prameter is GG. This is where you drop any surface or BREP geometry from grasshopper. Note that materials in Pachyderm are set by layer, and grasshopper geometry does not have layers… which brings us to the next parameter, GL. Here, you indicate an integer for every piece of geometry, which corresponds to the index of the layer where pachyderm will find the material properties you want applied to your grasshopper geometry. Just make sure that the number of integers matches the number of surfaces or breps, and that they are both in the same order.

The last parameter (VG) is just a parameter indicating the depth of the spatial partition system. Choose a high number (7 or so) if you will be doing lots of ray-tracing on the model, or a low number(2 oe 3) if you will be changing the scene a lot and will be doing a relatively low amount of ray-tracing.

Regarding your results, I would make sure you are using enough rays. For an outdoor scene, you may need to pump the number of rays up very high… perhaps in the millions. Because they will not bounce around very much, you will find that the calculation time is probably still reasonable.

kind regards,

Arthur

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**Author:** ![MacGros](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/mcneel/user_avatar/discourse.mcneel.com/macgros/32/159207_2.png) [@MacGros](https://discourse.mcneel.com/u/MacGros)\
**Post date:** [November 27, 2017, 11:15pm UTC](https://discourse.mcneel.com/t/issues-with-pachyderm-looking-for-a-tutorial/49809/5 "2017-11-27T23:15:23Z")

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Hey,

I’m trying to figure out how to use Pachyderm too. Looking for a tutorial, or way better, a reference.

I wanna compute the **ETC** (in order to get the reverb, the early decay time and every subsequent analysis working) but end up with a problem to build the stationary receiver. It asks for a **Srcs** , i can only bring an **Src** and I’d hoped for more success.

 ![Pachyderm Src](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/mcneel/uploads/default/original/3X/1/2/12d2599a38dbd1f8cb58ca3bf76ad164eb21c871.JPG)

Any clue ?  
And if I may ask @Arthur for some example files, I’d be glad to have them to accompany me in my researchs 😉

Thanks in advance !  
Have a nice day

[PACH\_1. Essais Pachyderm.gh](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/mcneel/uploads/default/original/3X/a/9/a935aaeea8b92b6103081655b844284894e45ce8.gh) (17.7 KB)

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**Author:** ![Arthur](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/mcneel/user_avatar/discourse.mcneel.com/arthur/32/490814_2.png) [@Arthur](https://discourse.mcneel.com/u/Arthur)\
**Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 3:38am UTC](https://discourse.mcneel.com/t/issues-with-pachyderm-looking-for-a-tutorial/49809/6 "2017-11-28T03:38:13Z")

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Hi Ant,

Try the attached  
.[Open Office.3dm](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/mcneel/uploads/default/original/3X/8/7/87fd7ad9d2376e7a33c572bfc9321f4526c0504f.3dm) (289.0 KB)  
[Office Noise Display.gh](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/mcneel/uploads/default/original/3X/4/e/4e042ea0f4572974b00ec88bb50e462429f4234a.gh) (16.8 KB)

Arthur

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**Author:** ![MacGros](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/mcneel/user_avatar/discourse.mcneel.com/macgros/32/159207_2.png) [@MacGros](https://discourse.mcneel.com/u/MacGros)\
**Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 9:22am UTC](https://discourse.mcneel.com/t/issues-with-pachyderm-looking-for-a-tutorial/49809/7 "2017-11-30T09:22:36Z")

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Hey,

Thx a lot for these files, got to understand pachyderm a bit more.

 ![Analysis](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/mcneel/uploads/default/original/3X/d/8/d80ca7138a0e485367f57c175707b5d615c6f848.JPG)

Then I’ve got a new question @Arthur : I bet the Power (P) [The power spectrum for the source (0=62.5, 1= 125 … 7 = 8000)] input to the Geodesic Source is in dB and the 8 step range correspond to frequencies in Hz.  
If I’m right, is it possible to broaden this spectrum to have a range from 20Hz to 20kHz ? May using the Loudspeaker object instead of a Geodesic one more suited ? (in fact, I’m not sure of which to use in which case).

→ I’d like to compute the Spaciousness criterion right after 😃

I do hope I’m right with the units  
Regards,

[PACH\_1.2. Essais Pachyderm.gh](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/mcneel/uploads/default/original/3X/0/3/03857009c43ad6f8e5ad609d94ed00c7da6153f0.gh) (39.3 KB)  
[PACH\_1. Essais Pachyderm.3dm](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/mcneel/uploads/default/original/3X/6/7/67d573e3c8062d7ebf853352d3f8c50659f68130.3dm) (277.3 KB)

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**Author:** ![Arthur](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/mcneel/user_avatar/discourse.mcneel.com/arthur/32/490814_2.png) [@Arthur](https://discourse.mcneel.com/u/Arthur)\
**Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 7:03pm UTC](https://discourse.mcneel.com/t/issues-with-pachyderm-looking-for-a-tutorial/49809/8 "2017-11-30T19:03:37Z")

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Hi,

It wouldn’t be appropriate to broaden the settings beyond the frequencies of 63 to 8k. You would seldom find material data for those frequency ranges, and the geometrical analysis techniques are not terribly useful at extreme low frequencies (63 Hz. is even a stretch).

The loudspeaker object is used when you have a CLF file, for loudspeaker directivity. (see [http://www.clfgroup.org/](http://www.clfgroup.org/))

For spaciousness, you will probably be looking at Lateral Fraction or Lateral Efficiency. You can also listen to the room’s spatial qualities if you use Auralization in the Rhino plugin. (I’m currently working on some improvements to auralization, so you might want to wait about a week for that).

Arthur

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**Author:** ![MacGros](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/mcneel/user_avatar/discourse.mcneel.com/macgros/32/159207_2.png) [@MacGros](https://discourse.mcneel.com/u/MacGros)\
**Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 3:45pm UTC](https://discourse.mcneel.com/t/issues-with-pachyderm-looking-for-a-tutorial/49809/9 "2017-12-02T15:45:46Z")

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Hey,

Ok, it’s true that the only material acoustic references I’ve seen range from 125Hz to 8kHz (Vörlander 2007). I’ll dig in some articles to better understand that.

Yé, saw your tutorial, thanks for the link

I’ll look for that, I’ve never heard of these descriptors, I was thinking about Apparent Source Width (ASW) and Listener Enveloppment (LEV) as they are described in the annex of ISO 3382, which shall soon be renewed as it was written in 2008-2009, acoustic science has evolved since then.

I’m looking for that, just tried my first auralization.

Thanks a lot for all these information, I’ll be happy to share models and definition once my work is over  
and like the solution processor says “Have a Nice Day” !

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**Author:** ![dem.art](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/mcneel/user_avatar/discourse.mcneel.com/dem.art/32/184208_2.png) [@dem.art](https://discourse.mcneel.com/u/dem.art)\
**Post date:** [December 9, 2017, 3:57pm UTC](https://discourse.mcneel.com/t/issues-with-pachyderm-looking-for-a-tutorial/49809/10 "2017-12-09T15:57:39Z")

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I’m sorry for the late reply, but my PC was enjoying an holiday to the technical service!

Weel, thank you sooo much! You solved all my problems! 😀

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**Author:** ![vigneshkaushik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/mcneel/user_avatar/discourse.mcneel.com/vigneshkaushik/32/75363_2.png) [@vigneshkaushik](https://discourse.mcneel.com/u/vigneshkaushik)\
**Post date:** [December 14, 2017, 6:10am UTC](https://discourse.mcneel.com/t/issues-with-pachyderm-looking-for-a-tutorial/49809/11 "2017-12-14T06:10:11Z")

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@Arthur will be presenting TGIC’s upcoming webinar on using ‘Pachyderm Plugin for Room Acoustics Simulation in Rhino/GH’.

> **[Audible Designs: Room Acoustics Simulation in Rhino/GH](https://www.bigmarker.com/TGIC/Audible-Designs-Room-Acoustics-Simulation-in-Rhino-GH?utm_bmcr_source=linkedin)**
>
> Most software solutions merely simulate the room, and provide you simulated measurements and performance. That's great, but it tells you very little about how to improve your room. What we need is a design tool that can help you understand why your...

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**Author:** ![dem.art](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/mcneel/user_avatar/discourse.mcneel.com/dem.art/32/184208_2.png) [@dem.art](https://discourse.mcneel.com/u/dem.art)\
**Post date:** [December 15, 2017, 8:15am UTC](https://discourse.mcneel.com/t/issues-with-pachyderm-looking-for-a-tutorial/49809/12 "2017-12-15T08:15:42Z")

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Definetly going to attend! ✌

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**Author:** ![AndersDeleuran](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/mcneel/user_avatar/discourse.mcneel.com/andersdeleuran/32/476683_2.png) [@AndersDeleuran](https://discourse.mcneel.com/u/AndersDeleuran)\
**Post date:** [December 15, 2017, 9:02am UTC](https://discourse.mcneel.com/t/issues-with-pachyderm-looking-for-a-tutorial/49809/13 "2017-12-15T09:02:58Z")

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This might not be 100% relevant to your question, buuuut, my friend [Isak](http://personprofil.aau.dk/112805?lang=en) just uploaded [a whole podcast series on Architectural Acoustics](https://vimeo.com/user31918898), several of which deal specifically with Pachyderm, that may help.

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**Author:** ![dem.art](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/mcneel/user_avatar/discourse.mcneel.com/dem.art/32/184208_2.png) [@dem.art](https://discourse.mcneel.com/u/dem.art)\
**Post date:** [December 15, 2017, 10:21am UTC](https://discourse.mcneel.com/t/issues-with-pachyderm-looking-for-a-tutorial/49809/14 "2017-12-15T10:21:12Z")

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Thank you!

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**Author:** ![Kezia\_Kuswanto](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/mcneel/user_avatar/discourse.mcneel.com/kezia_kuswanto/32/638876_2.png) [@Kezia\_Kuswanto](https://discourse.mcneel.com/u/Kezia_Kuswanto)\
**Post date:** [January 10, 2025, 8:38am UTC](https://discourse.mcneel.com/t/issues-with-pachyderm-looking-for-a-tutorial/49809/15 "2025-01-10T08:38:24Z")

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Hi @Arthur i am new to this pachyderm plug ins and when i connect it to my rhino i found out that my pachyderm does not have any material in the library . i don"t know what is going on , can you help me ? thank you

 ![Capture](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/mcneel/uploads/default/original/4X/c/c/3/cc3f14787b9af7bb6572278f0a8a1445b47083df.png)

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**Author:** ![Arthur](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/mcneel/user_avatar/discourse.mcneel.com/arthur/32/490814_2.png) [@Arthur](https://discourse.mcneel.com/u/Arthur)\
**Post date:** [January 10, 2025, 12:15pm UTC](https://discourse.mcneel.com/t/issues-with-pachyderm-looking-for-a-tutorial/49809/16 "2025-01-10T12:15:20Z")

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Hi,  
That version doesn’t work with rhino 8. Get the new version from the package manager.

Remember to uninstall this one first, though.

Tutorials are on the website:

> **[Pachyderm Acoustic Simulation — ORASE](https://www.orase.org/pachyderm)**

Arthur

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**Author:** ![Kezia\_Kuswanto](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/mcneel/user_avatar/discourse.mcneel.com/kezia_kuswanto/32/638876_2.png) [@Kezia\_Kuswanto](https://discourse.mcneel.com/u/Kezia_Kuswanto)\
**Post date:** [January 10, 2025, 1:13pm UTC](https://discourse.mcneel.com/t/issues-with-pachyderm-looking-for-a-tutorial/49809/17 "2025-01-10T13:13:06Z")

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thank you for your help but sadly is still not working is it because i dint used the official rhino ?

> **(attachments)**
>
> ![Capture.PNG](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/mcneel/uploads/default/original/4X/c/e/f/cef255b16cc2518525e3f6d415a2225cb3da997a.png)

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**Author:** ![Arthur](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/mcneel/user_avatar/discourse.mcneel.com/arthur/32/490814_2.png) [@Arthur](https://discourse.mcneel.com/u/Arthur)\
**Post date:** [January 11, 2025, 12:27am UTC](https://discourse.mcneel.com/t/issues-with-pachyderm-looking-for-a-tutorial/49809/18 "2025-01-11T00:27:03Z")

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Hi,

I’m going to ignore the part about official rhino as it’s not really any of my business…

The icon gives it away. That’s an extremely old version of pachyderm. You didn’t do what I said to do. Try again:

In Windows, go to ‘add or remove programs’, and use it to uninstall pachyderm.

Once it has finished uninstalling, open rhino 8, and type ‘package manager’ into the command prompt.

In the package manager, search for Pachyderm. If you have at least version 8.9, it should show up. Click install.

Good luck.

Arthur

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**Author:** ![Kezia\_Kuswanto](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/mcneel/user_avatar/discourse.mcneel.com/kezia_kuswanto/32/638876_2.png) [@Kezia\_Kuswanto](https://discourse.mcneel.com/u/Kezia_Kuswanto)\
**Post date:** [January 12, 2025, 4:10pm UTC](https://discourse.mcneel.com/t/issues-with-pachyderm-looking-for-a-tutorial/49809/19 "2025-01-12T16:10:34Z")

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thank you

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Kezia\_Kuswanto](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/mcneel/user_avatar/discourse.mcneel.com/kezia_kuswanto/32/638876_2.png) [@Kezia\_Kuswanto](https://discourse.mcneel.com/u/Kezia_Kuswanto)\
**Post date:** [January 14, 2025, 11:15am UTC](https://discourse.mcneel.com/t/issues-with-pachyderm-looking-for-a-tutorial/49809/20 "2025-01-14T11:15:03Z")

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Hi Mr Mc Neel  
this is an update on the pachyderm that i download from the package manager. It looks like the grasshopper could not load the file ( i have deleted the older version of pachyderm from the system ) . what should i do ? thanl you

 ![Capture.JPG](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/mcneel/uploads/default/original/4X/8/9/7/897bc80eeebe13f1c461cfcc195f1752b4cdca79.jpeg)

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