Looking at the link to the mandatory terms to be a Rhino reseller, I see that the Bulgarian reseller “CAD Point” Ltd. probably orders at least 10 Rhino licenses per year (it’s mandatory to order products from “McNeal” worth at least 10 000 euros) which gives them about 35% discount that they mostly use as a profit margin since they sell Rhino 6 for the official retail price and on top of that they add 20% VAT for a final price of 1194 Euros. Then they pay just 10% company tax, which leaves about 25% or 248 Euros as a profit per Rhino 6 license (less the salary of the staff which is both very small and paid at Bulgarian salary rate; and they also sell other CAD software, 3d Connexion hardware, 3d printers and other hardware, training /which I would not trust/ etc, so their wage is spread out across many products compared to resellers who only distribute Rhino). Meanwhile, the minimum salary in Bulgaria is 284 Euros before 38% tax. I wonder if there is any other place in the Earth where the Rhino reseller’s profit margin from a single license is almost identical to the minimum monthly salary before tax in the same country.
Again, I don’t want to say that Rhino must be sold at lower price worldwide. I just can’t understand the logic for Rhino 6 to cost more in Bulgaria (especially with the very low corporate tax rate in mind) than in much more developed countries.
P.S.: By the way, “Cad Point” Ltd. violates the Bulgarian law as their Rhino 6 price is listed only in Euros, while the one legal currency in Bulgaria is the Bulgarian Lev (Leva, plural). We don’t operate with Euros here and it’s mandatory for the local retailers to list their prices in Leva. In order for a Bulgarian customer to buy a Rhino 6 license from the local reseller in Euros, he or she must visit a bank or an exchange office for a currency conversion (digital conversion by the bank account is even more expensive), which adds about 1% on top of the reseller’s price, or 12 Euros in the best scenario. With other words, it’s the local reseller in Bulgaria to blame, because it gets the highest possible profit while the corresponding total product cost (corporate tax, VAT, currency conversion) is paid by the end user.
Normally that goes directly back to the state, the reseller cannot keep any portion of that. However, they can deduct any VAT that was used to buy inventory (plus a number of other company expenses, depends on the country’s VAT policies). That’s why it’s called “Value Added Tax”, in principle taxes are applied on the difference between the buy and sell prices, or what is “added” by the retailer.
Well, there are other expenses for a company besides just income tax… But true, my overhead for selling software is now far less than it was when I had my model shop in a rental space with more than a quarter of a million dollars worth of machinery.
Hmm, didn’t know that, assumed it was in Euro. Exchange rates are also a PITA here, especially as the Euro<>CHF rate fluctuates a lot. I need to adjust my CHF prices regularly in accordance; I also allow clients to pay in Euro if they want, then they get the 995 price all the time. However, in my case, I end up eating the exchange percentage - it doesn’t get passed on to the customer - so only the banks win on this one.
Just small clarification regarding EUR<>BGN exchange rate. There is a currency board contract in effect and exchange rates do not fluctuate. There is a range for buy and sell usually it’s 1.95-1.98 BGN for 1 euro.
Yes I can confirm that, I wanted to pay with credit card which is in BGN and CAD Point did not agree on that either.
I agree and wanted to point out as well that I don’t really have an alternative to the current solution. It’s hard, if not impossible, to come up with a solution that fits every country.
I’m aware that companies have various expenses other than the company tax, however, every of these is 5-10 times cheaper (no kidding) than what a company in Germany, France, Finland or any other country in the EU pays. For example, book keeper service for companies in Bulgaria costs approximately 26-52 Euros per month. The same service in Finland was 300 Euros per month in a company where I worked in the past. Rented offices are also many times cheaper in Bulgaria. Similarly sized office in Bulgaria is about 500 Euros per month, but 3000 Euros in Finland. Salaries in Bulgaria are also several times lower. VAT: 20% in Bulgaria, and 24% in Finland (it was 26% until a few years ago). Despite that huge difference in company expenses, Rhino 6 costs less in Finland than in Bulgaria.
Anyway, I will skip buying from “CAD Point” Ltd. and just wanted to know if it’s legal to use a Rhino 6 license bought from “Novedge” but used in Bulgaria. Or, if there is a 2nd hand market for “used” Rhino 6 at discount price that could be verified by “McNeal”.
I have a few questions and will be glad if someone from “McNeal” reply accordingly:
When will Rhino 7 get released on the market? Is it planned for 2020, or 2021, or 2022, 2023 or later? Obviously, it will not be fun for me to buy Rhino 6 at full price in the near future, only to see Rhino 7 being released a few months later and pay 50% on top of that for an upgrade that I could otherwise avoid with a bit of patience.
If, for example, I buy Rhino 6 this year and then upgrade to Rhino 7 when it’s released, could I sell my Rhino 6 license to another person and still keep Rhino 7? Or, is the Rhino 7 upgrade “glued” to the Rhino 6 one and they can’t be split to different persons?
If I buy Rhino 6 and later upgrade to Rhino 7, could I use both of them on two different machines at the same time? Will the upgrade to Rhino 7 disable Rhino 6?
Will Rhino 6 and Rhino 7 (which is an upgrade to Rhino 6) be able to run simultaneously on the same machine? For example, when I open different models in Rhino 6 and Rhino 7 and I want to copy and paste some objects between both?
I’m not from McNeel but I’ve been participating in the Rhino forums for almost ten years. My answers below are based on what I’ve seen but I do not have any connection with McNeel other than being a customer.
McNeel never talks about release schedules until a few days or maybe weeks before the release. Since V2 new versions have been released every 5 to 6 years which suggests it will be several years before V7 is released.
Oct 1998 - Rhino version 1.0 released
Aug 2001 - Rhino 2.0 shipped
Nov 2002 - Rhino 3.0 released
Feb 2007 - Rhino 4.0 released
Oct 2012 - Rhino 5 for Windows released
Feb 2018 - Rhino 6 for Windows released
When you upgrade you are upgrading the license, not buying a new license. You still only own one license.
No. Current situation is a single license can only be used on a single machine at any time. The license can shared among different machines using the Zoo or Cloud Zoo but a single license can only be used on one machine at a time.
Yes. Based on the current practice you will be able to run multiple sessions of both Rhino 6 and Rhino 7 simultaneously. I have had simultaneous sessions of Rhino 5, Rhino 6 and Rhino 7 WIP running at the same time on a single machine.
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Thank you for taking the time to reply all my questions! I hoped that Rhino 7 will be released in 2020, because Rhino 6 lacks some major NURBS functionalities while competitor CAD programs like Alias and Catia receive new surfacing tools and upgraded features quite often in comparison. Looks like Rhino 7 will not come anytime soon. At least Rhino 7 WIP could be used meantime. The way I see it, Rhino 7’s biggest selling point will be SubD, while I mostly like to see a big leap with the NURBS surfacing tools. I remember that recently in another topic Pascal mentioned about some improvement of “Blend surface” that reduced the control points, so I hope that there will be many other similar improvements with the other tools such like “Sweep 2 rails”, “Match surface”, “Network surface”, “Patch” (XNurbs is a great example of that Rhino’s “Patch” should be) etc.
Hi, I think it is odd that RhinoWannaB has an issue with NZ pricing that is totally legitimate. If a buyer follows the link to buy the product, the full detail of how the foreign exchange rate is calculated and applied is explained legitimately, explicitly. And is displayed at: https://3danz.com/collections/rhino-6/products/rhino-6
I think it even odder that RhinoWannaB raises an issue on a forum such as this and denigrates my company as legitimate reseller conducting business in an exemplary manner without even picking up the phone and talking to me.
Many many customers in NZ totally value our contribution as a reseller to the Rhino community. Here is what one NZ customer recently had to say about us:
I’m just writing to place on record my appreciation for the fantastic customer service provided in this instance.
Tim was so prompt and so comprehensive in his replies that I struggled to keep up with having to respond to them And he went over and above, in referring to you, Wendy, the issue of lack of license records for proof of ownership of a prior version, trying to be proactively helpful in finding a way forward on the issue. And Wendy made the effort to go through the records to identify previous purchases under a different contact address. All this for just one trifling little upgrade license purchase ! I think that is outstanding customer service !
So, I just wanted to say thank you for the fine effort. It is a rare thing, and needs to be held out and appreciated when it does happen. And long may such wonderful service continue.
Of course, if a customer doesn’t see value in this kind of service, then they walk alone.
I am curious to read any of the negative reviews and the count compared to the positive ones.
I’m sure in this forum they can find enough info and support perhaps even more than a reseller can provide. I wonder why this ‘appreciative customer’ never asked a question here . Perhaps the reseller didn’t post a link to the forum on their website?
There seemed to be no issue with Canadians buying software from Novedge or other US vendors before, but that may no longer be the case, especially with upcoming changes to NAFTA. Novedge wasn’t charging any Canadian sales taxes on their software sales and may have gotten busted for that. When Rhino 7 is released, I’ll give them another shot for the upgrade, but the days of screaming deals on US software may be over for all of us in Canada.
I wish that there were plans for releasing Rhino 7 Lite version that’s considerably cheaper and only consists tools for NURBS modeling and surface analysis primarily used by hobbyists, removing Grasshopper, Rendering, and Make2D…
I suggest you try deactivating all plugins and try working like that.
All exporters, visuals, grasshopper, python, etc. they are all plugins.
I would never agree paying any price for Rhino stripped like this. I’ll be better off some freeware tool.
Don’t put ideas in McNeel’s head @Rhino_Bulgaria! Don’t you dare! What you’re suggesting is how Dassault Systemes sell their software. They sell a cheap shell good for nothing and then all the apps that go inside are worth tens of thousands each.
Next expect McNeel close this forums and demand annual fee for support.
I absolutely understand what you mean, and fully agree with you about the greedy practices of other companies “selling” CAD software based on annual rent of the programs (it’s one of the main reasons why I so much love Rhino), but my post had a very different intent. As long as the fully loaded Rhino 7 keeps the current price of Rhino 6 (995 Euros), and Rhino 7 Lite offers mainly modeling tools for, say, 300-500 Euros, I’m totally fine with that.
I also understand your point but…
You know considering the economics the constant raising of prices and salaries and McNeel hiring more people bringing technologies like Cycles and Eto it is only fair that they raise the price of Rhino as well. Even if they double the price it would be fair.
If that will keep them in the business I’m all for that.
They provide support to old versions and if people don’t want the new price they should stay with the old versions.
@Rhino_Bulgaria, проблема за съжаление не е в цената на Rhino а в заплатите и екслпоатацията на труд в България.
And he went over and above, in referring to you, Wendy, the issue of lack of license records for proof of ownership of a prior version, trying to be proactively helpful in finding a way forward on the issue. And Wendy made the effort to go through the records to identify previous purchases under a different contact address. All this for just one trifling little upgrade license purchase ! I think that is outstanding customer service !
. Perhaps the reseller didn’t post a link to the forum on their website?
